Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme disease

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by X-member » Wed 5 Sep 2012 23:19

I try again:

From an earlier post:
More than 95% can be classified as early LNB (stage II),
The above is what the studies on neuroborreliosis is done on. Those studies show that neuroborreliosis is easy to cure (in most cases).

But what about this?:
whereas late LNB has a chronic course

And the example above can just as well be carditis instead or Lyme disease somewhere else in the body.

It is about TIME and not WHERE in the body it is located, and not "as in" the quote Spanky gave us from IDSA:
differences may be related more to the degree of involvement

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by X-member » Wed 5 Sep 2012 23:41

Duncan you said (earlier):
Ultimately, one can have late stage lyme without involvement of the CNS, e.g. cardiac involvement only, but I would wager that is rare.
No, a "non-neuroborreliosis" is actually the most common form of late Lyme disease.

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Spanky
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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by Spanky » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:05

"Carina":
This topic is not about what IDSA say.

Well, someone named "Carina" said this, earlier in this thread:
Let us say that most people actually think that neuroboreliosis is the same thing as late Lyme disease/stage 3? Then they will probably think that Halperins information (above) is correct.


Halperin is one of the authors of the IDSA Guidelines...and the section that I have tried, several times, now, to get you to focus on...really explains the issue you have now managed to get yourself confused about...again.

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by X-member » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:08

Are the studies that Halperin base his words on, done on stage 3 neuroborreliosis?

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by Spanky » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:11

"Carina":
Are the studies that Halperin base his words on, based on studies on stage 3 neuroborreliosis?
Unbelievable.

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by X-member » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:24

Spanky:
Unbelievable.
So, you don't know if Halperin also talk about stage 3 neuroborreliosis?

I also found this in the information from Norway:

These criteria apply to all subclasses of LNB except for late LNB with polyneuropathy where the following should be fulfilled for definite diagnosis: (I) peripheral neuropathy (II) acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans (III) Bb-specific antibodies in serum.

I found it very interesting, because the above is (almost) exactly the same as I have said many times in this forum.

I shall see if I can find Henrys answer when I have mentioned the above.

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by X-member » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:37

I used the European definition chronic Lyme borreliosis (=late Lyme disease) in the topic below, and this was because this European definition (for late Lyme disease) WAS USED in this study from Norway:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =10#p30385

Henrys answer:
ACA is a localized skin lesion and not at all like the condition most people in the U.S. -- and now even Europe-- refer to as chronic Lyme disease. It's not the same thing. It is treated with 21 days of antibiotics, usually oral doxycycline -- with complete cure
As you can see, he did not understand what I talked about, but as he say this:
It is treated with 21 days of antibiotics, usually oral doxycycline -- with complete cure.
I will give you a study on ACA (this is one of the two studies they use in for ACA in the Swedish recommendations).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3056202

A quote (from the study above):
Later extracutaneous manifestations developed in 27% of the patients with erythema migrans and in 47% of the patients with ACA despite antibiotic therapy. We could not prove the superiority of any antibiotic tested in either early or late European Lyme borreliosis.
I give you what Henry said again:
with complete cure
Does it look like that in the study?

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by duncan » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:39

Carina,

Sorry, poor sentence on my part. The "rare" I was referring to was a case of Bb being siloed or restricted to the heart alone.

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by X-member » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:48

It can be hard to follow what it is that I try to make people understand.

Especially when Spanky post some information (from IDSA) that do not help me in any way. :?

I am not intersted in what IDSA say, I try to explain what Halperin don't say.

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Re: Neuroborreliosis is not the same thing as late Lyme dise

Post by X-member » Thu 6 Sep 2012 0:49

Duncan:
The "rare" I was referring to was a case of Bb being siloed or restricted to the heart alone.
Ok. Yes, that is probably rare.

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