Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 12 Dec 2016 1:51

So, quantity = quality?

Stan Lee wrote MANY, MANY comic books. Some might caution, however, about comparing all those comic books to the relatively few, seminal writings of Hemingway.

Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 12 Dec 2016 15:28

You entirely miss the point, Duncan. The issue is one of examining the credentials of those making statements to be interpreted as facts based on evidence. Surely you would agree that having extensive experience doing productive research on Lyme disease and having the results of such research evaluated through a process of rigorous peer-review before publication in a major scientific journals is one but a very important factor in making such an appraisal. It is a valid way to examine the credentials of those disseminating what one would hope to be is useful and valid information. It is an excellent way to determine whether the results of evidence-based research merit wide acceptance in the scientific community. That is hardly the dissemination of propaganda.

Your analogy about comic books and Hemingway is ludicrous and indicates that you are motivated more by bias, i.e., finding and supporting only those who agree with your ideas. You can judge for yourself as to how such an approach has served you all these past many years. It must be comforting ?

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 12 Dec 2016 16:19

Wouldn't you agree that another "excellent way to determine whether the results of evidence-based research merit wide acceptance in the scientific community" is to see how that research stacks up in real-world situations? Within the broader medical community, I would suggest to you that could - and perhaps should? - eventually tie back to how many patients such research efforts fail, at least to a degree.

Btw, in general, how does the greater medical community perceive attributing possible diagnostic or treatment inadequacies to the aches and pains of everyday life within the patient? Where do you find the evidence-based merit in such research, Henry?

As for credentials, I think the credentials of the individuals I noted hold up pretty well to scrutiny. There obviously are others that I have not mentioned.

dlf
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by dlf » Mon 12 Dec 2016 16:56

Henry, you seem to believe that credentials somehow automatically = credibility. Maybe in some scientific fields this is true, however you seem to have forgotten that there is one very large factor (which is highly prevalent among those Lyme researchers you favour) that can completely negate your equation.

Conflicts of interest are powerful motivators and along with the publish or perish mentality that is so pervasive in scientific and academic circles these two things have led to a wide range of less than savoury practices both in scientific studies and in their publication.

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/ ... t-corners/

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 015-9638-0

hv808ct wrote:
Fine, but Lewis and Zhang are not long-time LD researchers. They simply applied some familiar behaviors of stationary-phase bacteria to Bb. Embers is virologist who studied HPV until she found an Assist. Prof. position at Tulane’s monkey farm. John Aucott’s position as Hopkins faculty seems as tenuous as my own office space and title at the University of _______. He’s the sole physician at the obscure JHU LD Research Ctr., and both he and Embers seem to spend more of their time maintaining ties to private LD foundations (Bay Area Lyme Foundation, LymeMD, LymeInnovation) than doing fundamental research or collaborating with the two generations of active, productive LD investigators.
To me this sounds a lot like sour grapes, but I rather suspect that whoever hv808ct is in the real world, he is acutely aware of the pressure to produce volumes of papers simply in order to keep his position. That kind of perceived job insecurity provides the potential to breed diverse scientific and ethical misconduct.

Aside from that, hv808ct seems to have missed the news about John Aucott. I don't think Aucott has to worry about losing his office space anytime soon.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/med ... nitiatives

Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 12 Dec 2016 17:10

dlf: More telling is the tendency to attack the hard-earned reputation of accomplished scientists, who can't all be wrong, when their findings fail to support your unproven views. In the final analysis, that's what you are doing. When you can't provide proof to support your unfounded views, the next step is to destroy the opposition. It's all you have left.

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 12 Dec 2016 18:26

Well, technically, there remains the outstanding issue of - according to common estimates of 5%-20% - upwards of 60,000 patients who are left with persistent symptoms, after recommended treatment, each and every year, in the US alone.

So, after 35 years, how many sick patients does that potentially leave us with?

Studies like the one discussed in this thread should be helping us to understand why.

hv808ct
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by hv808ct » Mon 12 Dec 2016 18:57

Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters
Post by dlf » Mon 12 Dec 2016 16:56

To me this sounds a lot like sour grapes, but I rather suspect that whoever hv808ct is in the real world, he is acutely aware of the pressure to produce volumes of papers simply in order to keep his position. That kind of perceived job insecurity provides the potential to breed diverse scientific and ethical misconduct.

Aside from that, hv808ct seems to have missed the news about John Aucott. I don't think Aucott has to worry about losing his office space anytime soon.
No, my job’s secure. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word “tenuous.” Perhaps “vague” would have been a better choice. Anyway, no, I didn’t miss the $10M news. It just reaffirms the idea that Lyme activists with money tend to support the work that fits their personal narrative.

“Lyme disease is a debilitating disease that most people don’t understand,” said Greenwich resident Alex Cohen, president of the Stamford-based Steven & Alexandra Cohen Foundation who herself has been afflicted with Lyme disease….”

Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 12 Dec 2016 19:03

Shoddy reasoning, Duncan. What you say assumes that these patients all are suffering from the same thing, namely, that they have a persistent Borrelia infection, which has not been demonstrated to be the case, and that extended antibiotic therapy or treatment with other kinds of antibiotics will cure them.

Also, it has not been demonstrated that the in vitro studies of Zhang et al. are clinically relevant, i.e., that his in vitro results are an accurate reflection of what is happening in vivo. in which the host immune system plays a major role.

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 12 Dec 2016 19:07

No, my statement does not mean that all of that 20% portion are necessarily suffering from continued Lyme. I happen to lean that way, but perhaps it's that corrupted immune response we touched upon earlier that was initially wrought by Bb (which had since been eradicated).

The point is, I don't foist those persistent symptoms on the character of the patients either way.

However, if the trail leads - and we need to be LOOKING - to an immune response that gets broken by Borrelia, then we need to identify that as a possible and very real consequence of Borrelia and invest more research into qualifying and curing it. We cannot simply say "This ain't Lyme." Well, we can, but we shouldn't.

dlf
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by dlf » Mon 12 Dec 2016 19:25

I would love to be able to continue this discussion and more fully explain that I was not attacking any specific researchers, merely pointing out the general problem. I don't use that tactic and prefer to discuss each study on its own merits or lack thereof, as can be seen in several of my posts where it doesn't matter who the authors are. When I think the study has merit I voice that.......Unfortunately, I will be away from my computer for pretty much the rest of today.

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