Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 19 Dec 2016 20:03

Since I am not advocating the "disrupted immune system" hypothesis, you will have to get assistance from someone else to enlighten you on that issue. All I have suggested is that since the lipoprotein of live or dead Borrelia -- or their cellular debris-- have pharmacological properties that elicit the formation of inflammatory cytokines in situ, that could account for some or all of the symptoms ascribed to PTLDS.

Incidentally, both Embers and Bockenstedt found intact Borrelia in infected animals after antibiotic treatment; however, neither was able to demonstrate that these were viable cells. Most likely, they are dead intact bacterial cells -- which of course still have the pharmacological properties that I noted above.

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 19 Dec 2016 20:14

"Most likely"? :D There is an entire Lyme school of thought that would be delighted to differ on this wording. Lots of patients, too.

I was referring to late stage Lyme disease, Henry.

If after treatment, people infected with Lyme don't get better, what is causing their symptoms? If it is not an abrogated immune system, and it is not active Lyme, what is causing symptoms in people infected with Lyme 10 or 20 or 30 years ago? Are you suggesting cellular debris can present decades after infection and treatment, and can account for the entire spectrum of symptoms being experienced?

Please explain.

Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 19 Dec 2016 20:44

The simplest explanation is that their symptoms are due to something else, not Lyme disease, in which case searching for a persistent infection that is not present wouldn't do them much good, would it, Duncan. What's causing their symptoms? I don't know. There are several conditions that could elicit their symptoms. I know of several people who were being treated for years for chronic Lyme disease only to find out later that their symptoms were due entirely to a thyroid deficiency. Others suffered for years from what they considered to be late stage Lyme arthritis; once they found out that they had osteoarthirtis and had knee replacement surgery, they felt MUCH better. If you refuse to consider other possibilities, there is not much hope for you, Duncan.

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 19 Dec 2016 20:53

What other possibilities? I keep asking you about late stage Lyme, and you keep dancing around it. The best you have to offer is "their symptoms are due to something else"?

We do agree there is not much hope for all the sufferers of late stage Lyme who are failed by out-dated IDSA-recommended therapies, as long as old-school researchers cling to flawed theories.

It's not very comforting from the streets, Henry, this view of Lyme promulgated by a few perched in academic towers, which seems to discard the casualties littering the asphalt beneath them.

Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 19 Dec 2016 21:06

The IDA-recommend therapies are for treating Lyme disease, not for treating something else that remains to be defined in your case. That's why they won't work for you.

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 19 Dec 2016 21:18

Forget about me, Henry. You obsess about me, and it distracts. (It's a wee bit disconcerting, too.)

In theory, when people with confirmed late stage Lyme receive treatment, and their symptoms don't improve, what is the explanation - in particular, when symptoms persist unabated many years after infection and subsequent treatment first took place?

Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 19 Dec 2016 21:56

Obviously, my response to them is the same as my response to you.

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 19 Dec 2016 22:06

The theory you subscribe to is: you don't know??? This is ok by you to foist onto the countless Lyme patients left out in the cold?

So, someone gets bitten by a tick, gets the EM, meets CDC criteria for Lyme, receives treatment, and treatment fails to cure them of their symptoms, and your response is you don't know why, end of conversation?

Sorry, but that won't cut it.

Here's the deal, plain and simple: There is a disease that prominently and forcibly emerges on the medical radar, and it afflicts hundreds of thousands. Researchers tinker with treatments over a period of years, trying to find a cure. They propose a therapy that helps many, but leaves many still sick. What are the implications? I would hazard that most would opine that the treatment only works for SOME.

Henry, this isn't rocket science. Many researchers, and tens of thousands of patients, and just about any lay person can volunteer what's painfully clear: The patient still has Lyme. In what world other than the insulated protectionist world of Lyme would ANYONE suggest that the treatment worked in the example I just laid out??

Henry
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by Henry » Mon 19 Dec 2016 22:24

You're right. It's not rocket science. If they were diagnosed correctly and given IDSA-recommended treatment, they were cured of Lyme disease. So, their symptoms must be caused by something else -- obviously.

duncan
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Re: Ceftriaxone Pulse Dosing Fails to Eradicate Biofilm-Like Bb Persisters

Post by duncan » Mon 19 Dec 2016 22:32

Based in what Science? Clearly any myth that doxy or rocephen or whatever will always eradicate Borrelia has been debunked. So you cannot prove the universal and without-fail efficacy of conventional treatments, while I can point to studies (such as this thread is built upon) that amply suggest their limitations. The immune system mop-up ploy sounds hollow, and frankly seems a bit feeble - especially in light of all the studies which expose immune system irregularities wrought by Borrelia.

Face it: History may show the end-game for the Old Guard dogma was when Lewis and Zhang and Embers undermined the infallible treatment fairy tale.

Next we need to expose the infallible 2T as anything but - oh, wait, that was already been already done many times, even by staunch dogmatists.

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