False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
duncan
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed 5 Sep 2012 18:48

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by duncan » Tue 28 Feb 2017 17:32

First, please stop with the red herring. Most Lyme patients have objective evidence; just not your brand of it.

Second, please don't ask that I read that article again. I had to reach for the sick bucket just at the thought. I do not believe I could endure it.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by Henry » Tue 28 Feb 2017 17:37

I've heard all your tired old arguments before.................

duncan
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed 5 Sep 2012 18:48

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by duncan » Tue 28 Feb 2017 21:09

I find it unsettling that anybody would ever attempt to denigrate the patient experience. In what other disease would one find a small group of clinician/researchers seemingly try to downgrade the gravity of sufferers' symptoms, and reduce them to the level of common complaints? Just ballsy, or possibly reflective of a tragic and inexplicable disconnect from the patient experience?

And then there is the small matter of qualifying the whole exercise with what to me looks like a self-serving, limited definition of chronic Lyme disease, that really does appear to invoke the word "misleading"...

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by Henry » Tue 28 Feb 2017 22:05

Read the last sentence of the article. I believe the authors may be referring to people like you. I hardly find such a statement to be "denigrating" the patient experience. In view of your own experiences, don't you think it is time to consider other possibilities?

duncan
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed 5 Sep 2012 18:48

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by duncan » Tue 28 Feb 2017 22:13

Henry, what is Lyme disease? A spirochetal infection, yes? What does chronic mean?

Put "chronic" in front of "Lyme disease", and what is the result? I can tell you what it ain't: It ain't the definition put forth by these authors.

As for me, I find it difficult to discuss my diagnosis relative to this article, as I fall outside of its authors' definition - as I suspect most who are diagnosed with chronic Lyme disease would.

Oh, and I'll wager you know I wasn't referring to that last sentence when I talked about reducing the patient experience to just complaints common in the general population. You may wish to familiarize yourself with the first couple of paragraphs, if I'm not mistaken. Such an insinuation could lead one to wonder if the authors are really that familiar with the severity of Lyme symptoms - and the frequency and scope and duration of debilitating sequelae which qualify many sufferers.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by Henry » Wed 1 Mar 2017 15:29

Lyme disease has been defined historically as a tick-borne infection, which in the U.S., is cause by the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto. Although this bacterium is difficult to isolate from humans during infection, antibodies specific for Borrelia develop during the course of infection and are detectable in the vast majority of patients by 4-5 weeks after infection by the 2-tired test procedure. So, if your definition of Lyme disease does not conform to this widely accepted classic definition, your symptoms must be due to other causes, although you have the perfect right to try to relieve them as though they were due to Lyme disease -- at your own peril and expense.

Although there is noclear and accepted definition of chronic Lyme disease as a distinct clinical entity, those who claim to have it assume that it is due to a persistent infection and that treatment for prolonged periods of time with one or more antibiotics will eliminate it. However, there is no evidence for a persistent infection in such cases, and noevidence to indicate that prolonged treatment with antibiotics is beneficial in relieving symptoms attributed to chronic Lyme disease. So, as stated by the authors of the paper, no one denies that these patients are suffering from something and deserve to be treated appropriately with great care. It is just that they are not suffering from Lyme disease, which might be described more accurately as Lyme borreliosis. The solution to this problem is rather simple and obvious.

I rest my case.

duncan
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed 5 Sep 2012 18:48

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by duncan » Wed 1 Mar 2017 16:25

"Lyme disease has been defined historically as a tick-borne infection, which in the U.S., is cause by the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto."
So far so good.

"Although this bacterium is difficult to isolate from humans during infection, antibodies specific for Borrelia develop during the course of infection and are detectable in the vast majority of patients by 4-5 weeks after infection by the 2-tired test procedure."
They sometimes can be detectable with the 2T, but not necessarily, and they can be detectable outside the constraints of the 2T as well.

"So, if your definition of Lyme disease does not conform to this widely accepted classic definition, your symptoms must be due to other causes"
Yeah, I'm going to have to call BS on the declaration that symptoms MUST be due to other causes if someone fails the 2T.

"Although there is noclear and accepted definition of chronic Lyme disease as a distinct clinical entity, those who claim to have it assume that it is due to a persistent infection and that treatment for prolonged periods of time with one or more antibiotics will eliminate it
Well, first of all there are accepted definitions of the WORDS "chronic" and "Lyme disease", as I've already pointed out. Also, I would like to mention that it is highly likely that many chronic Lyme patients don't assume extended treatment will eliminate it - they hope it will. They also hope at the very least that it will help mitigate symptoms and stop the disease from spreading. But the operative word here is hope.

"However, there is no evidence for a persistent infection in such cases, and noevidence to indicate that prolonged treatment with antibiotics is beneficial in relieving symptoms attributed to chronic Lyme disease. "
No evidence whatsoever for a persistent infection EVER? You know this...how? As to your blanket statement that there exists no evidence that prolonged treatment is ever beneficial at relieving symptoms, I think you better re-read the 3 RCTs, and more to the point, patients talk to each other, Henry - you and these authors seem to ignore that fact.

"So, as stated by the authors of the paper, no one denies that these patients are suffering from something and deserve to be treated appropriately with great care. It is just that they are not suffering from Lyme disease,"
See, this is where people like you get yourselves into troubling situations. You. Simply. Cannot. Know that. :)

"The solution to this problem is rather simple and obvious."
Not to me. Please elaborate.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by Henry » Wed 1 Mar 2017 17:30

I am not going to waste my time giving a point-by-point response to your circular arguments, most if not all of which I have addressed in previous postings that you can go back to read if you wish. Suffice it to say that you have no laboratory or clinical evidence -- let's call them "facts" if you will-- to support the statements that you made. If you had such evidence, and if it were as solid and convincing as you think it is, there would be no controversy.

Bye now...........

X-member
Posts: 3954
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by X-member » Wed 1 Mar 2017 18:15

Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme Disease)
Eugene D. Shapiro


http://pedsinreview.aappublications.org ... 2/500.full

A quote:
On the basis of strong research evidence, treatment of Lyme disease at any stage with antibiotics is safe and highly efficacious.
Some information about this can now be found in the thread below:

IDSA: "Relapse may occur with any of these regimens..."

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =11&t=6244

One more quote:
There is no evidence that chronic Lyme disease exists. On the basis of strong evidence from research, patients treated for Lyme disease who have persistent, nonspecific symptoms (eg, arthralgia and fatigue) do not have persistent infection; the risks of prolonged treatment with antimicrobials far outweigh benefits, if any.
I really wonder why Dr Eugene D. Shapiro call persistent, nonspecific symptoms after treatment late Lyme disease (also called chronic Lyme disease)? Read more about this in the thread below:

The original definition of chronic (Lyme) borreliosis

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =11&t=6080

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: False and Misleading Information about Lyme Disease.

Post by Henry » Wed 1 Mar 2017 19:11

Why don't you ask him?

Post Reply