LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

For everything that is related to Lyme and/or Lymeland, but doesn't fit in the other forums. Speak your mind, connect, ask help, etc.
Locked
Cobwebby
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon 29 Oct 2007 0:55

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Cobwebby » Sat 7 Aug 2010 20:24

My interpretation. My perception.

Your #1 premise:: All Lyme patients must have an LLMD in order to get better. Was false from the gitgo- and I don't think anyone was refuting that it was false. As I said- you got better without one- fortunate fellow.
If your point is that all lyme patients don't necessarily need an LLMD in order to get better, well I think that is general knowledge. Even people who have known my experience with an LLMD have taken the route of their GP to get better.
I never tell people that they have to see an LLMD just because I did. In my book , your #1 premise never had any merit- therefore your premise#2 is irrelevant.

Besides- your focus was costs- and even Lyme Patients who do not see an LLMD , but stay with GP can also incur very high medical bills. I have quite a few myself now, from mainstream institutions that sit in a box unopened. :(


Spanky"]
"Cobwebby":What came across in your posts was:

Premise #1: Spanky is a Lyme patient. Spanky did NOT have an LLMD. Spanky got better.

Premise #2: All Lyme patients can get better without an LLMD.

Conclusion- If Spanky can do it , anyone can. :bonk:
Did I say that?

Or is that the way you interpreted it?[/quote]
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

User avatar
Spanky
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun 20 Jul 2008 19:40

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Sat 7 Aug 2010 20:31

"Carina":

IDSA don't have any studies done on chronic active (=of long duration) Lyme, where they have used a good combination treatment, that have lasted long enough.
Perhaps. But that's probably then, why they don't recommend doing that. Until they have some persuasive evidence that shows this to be beneficial...why would they recommend doing that?
And it is rather stupid to only use one type av ABX, since Lyme can change into both cystform and CWD/L-form.
As I understand the issue, there is currently no general agreement on what the cystic form means in terms of the overall disease process.
And, is is very important to do studies on cases from the real world, and those cases could have immune deficiencies (primary or secondary), co-infections, reactivated infections, and so on.
Guidelines are just that. You cannot possibly write a set of treatment guidelines that covers every conceivable possibility. They are a framework, a guide.

It is up to individual practitoners to apply them correctly according to the needs of individual patients.

Cobwebby
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon 29 Oct 2007 0:55

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Cobwebby » Sat 7 Aug 2010 20:34

Spanky"]
"Cobwebby":What came across in your posts was:

Premise #1: Spanky is a Lyme patient. Spanky did NOT have an LLMD. Spanky got better.

Premise #2: All Lyme patients can get better without an LLMD.

Conclusion- If Spanky can do it , anyone can. :bonk:
Did I say that?

Or is that the way you interpreted it?[/quote][/quote]

Yes-that is what you said-assuming you are referring to your case.

Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge?
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

X-member
Posts: 7682
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by X-member » Sat 7 Aug 2010 20:49

Spanky, you wrote:
Guidelines are just that. You cannot possibly write a set of treatment guidelines that covers every conceivable possibility. They are a framework, a guide.
I don't know how many times I have heard "the Guidelines say so, you don't need any more treatment".

And I am immune deficient!

I am soo tired of hearing that "everyone is cured" with 2 - 4 weeks with only one type of ABX (and in a very low dose).

And, Spanky, you only have answers about "what IDSA think about cystform".

What do IDSA say about CWD/L-form?

User avatar
Spanky
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun 20 Jul 2008 19:40

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Sat 7 Aug 2010 20:50

"Cobwebby":
My interpretation. My perception.
Yeah. And that is not what I said. At all. In fact, I said several times throughout the thread, that wasn't what I was saying.
Your #1 premise:: All Lyme patients must have an LLMD in order to get better. Was false from the gitgo- and I don't think anyone was refuting that it was false.
Yes. I know. I was merely showing that the #1 premise, (must have LLMD) which is widely circulated in Lymeland, especially at Lymenet, is FALSE. That my case, alone, disproves that. But that's the ONLY reason I was citing to my case. (And then Martian jumped in and questioned my choice of words when I was describing what happened, And we got off-track).

And why? What point was I trying to make there? (I mean, in the beginning).

That the expense that seems to flow from that, then, may also be unecessary. Related concepts.

Nowhere, that I am aware of...did I say that "I can do it, you can do it, too".

I specifically said that I really don't know why I got better. I was just remarking on how what they tell all the newbies is false.
As I said- you got better without one- fortunate fellow.
Depends on your perspective. Not recommending what happened with me to anyone.
If your point is that all lyme patients don't necessarily need an LLMD in order to get better, well I think that is general knowledge.
That wasn't the SOLE point...it was just to set up the whole question of financial necessity. AS THE THREAD TITLE INDCATES..."is it worth it"?

I ONLY used myself as an example to demonstrate the falsity of premise #1.

That's it.

If anyone thinks that I was trying to say "do as I do"...then, no. That is NOT what I was trying to say.

Just a simple point.
Besides- your focus was costs- and even Lyme Patients who do not see an LLMD , but stay with GP can also incur very high medical bills. I have quite a few myself now, from mainstream institutions that sit in a box unopened. :(
Well, yes...the focus was intended to be about costs.

But see, the question of worth, value, is linked to the question of need, necessity.

If you are being told that you absolutely have to have one...then you tend to believe that what you are paying is also essential.

Are we finally getting to the original point, now?

X-member
Posts: 7682
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by X-member » Sat 7 Aug 2010 21:04

Spanky, you wrote:
Guidelines are just that. You cannot possibly write a set of treatment guidelines that covers every conceivable possibility. They are a framework, a guide.

If you have "the type of Lyme ("chronic Lyme with complications"), that IDSA don't talk about and IDSA don't have any recommendation for" in their Guidelines, then the insurance companies can not actually deny to cover the cost for the treatment?

Have anyone tried this argument in contact with your insurance companies?

Cobwebby
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon 29 Oct 2007 0:55

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Cobwebby » Sat 7 Aug 2010 21:05

Spanky- How would you interpret this?

Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge?
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

User avatar
Spanky
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun 20 Jul 2008 19:40

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Sat 7 Aug 2010 21:21

"Cobwebby":
Yes-that is what you said-assuming you are referring to your case.

"Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge"?
That's NOT even a statement, there, Cobby.

That's a question. And a hypothetical, at that.

And it doesn't refer to my case, at all, but to the advisability and relative expense of oral therapy in general.

See, I don't think that I can, in all fairness, though, be held responsible for what I did not say but others think they heard me say...because it sounded like something else.

I try to choose my words very carefully. Sometimes, though, I will certainly admit that I don't manage to get it quite right.

And I am very sorry about that...but if people just ask me to explain? I certainly will try.

Cobwebby
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon 29 Oct 2007 0:55

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Cobwebby » Sat 7 Aug 2010 21:41

"Cobwebby":

Yes-that is what you said-assuming you are referring to your case.

"Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge"?


Spanky:

That's NOT even a statement, there, Cobby.

That's a question. And a hypothetical, at that.
____________________________________________________

Then my answer to your hypthetical question is that the fees an LLMD charges are the same as the fees of a mainstream doctor for the most part. The cost is probably very much the same- insurance is what makes the difference to the patient.
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

User avatar
Spanky
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun 20 Jul 2008 19:40

Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Sat 7 Aug 2010 22:16

"Cobwebby":

Spanky:

That's NOT even a statement, there, Cobby.

That's a question. And a hypothetical, at that.


Well, before we leave this, allow me to re-empahsize that the reason that is phrased that way is because I have NO independent knowledge or contact with any "LLMD" as I have said repeatedly.

So I DON'T KNOW. I was asking for people to think about it. Consider the question.

Yes, obviously, I am skeptical. But I really am dependent on others' accounts and descriptions online for any sense of what I have as to what an LLMD typically does or doesn't do. And as several have mentioned, now, this seems to vary widely, as does what, even, may constitute an "LLMD".

But that doesn't mean that my mind, opinion, is absolutely made up and locked in stone. It's a discussion board and I was merely asking questions. I am interested in what others might have to say on the issue...especially because I lack firsthand experience with an LLMD.
Then my answer to your hypthetical question is that the fees an LLMD charges are the same as the fees of a mainstream doctor for the most part. The cost is probably very much the same- insurance is what makes the difference to the patient.
Well, what is that answer based on though?

My general impression is that there is a whole lot of iv-ing going on. If you go back into this thread, and look at Martian's posts, you will see some online accounts of what the fees and charges are reported to be in some cases.

And correct me if I'm wrong...but aren't we talking, here, generally, about extended antibiotic services that are not recommended or approved? The general impression I get is that there seems to be ivs being used in situations where it probably has questionable medical necessity and for lengths of time that are also questionable. But I don't have firsthand information. As I said, all I can tell you is what I gather from what others report online. (And they are certainly discouraged from doing that).

So, it wouldn't be all that accurate to say that these charges are the same that a mainstream doctor would provide, because the mainstream doc wouldn't be treating for that length of time, right? Or by iv therapy, either, probably?

See, that's where the question, hypothetical, about orals was coming from. As I have said, it seems as though what is driving the LLMD thing is some unspoken assumption that 'more is better' in terms of the iv versus orals. And no question that the iv is more expensive. But does it produce better results? Does longer term therapy provide better results?

And yes, though. What insurance will or will not cover has a dramatic impact on the patient's wallet.

But if you are charging for services that insurance won't cover?

Right out -of -pocket.

Locked