LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

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minitails2
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by minitails2 » Thu 29 Jul 2010 0:03

Regarding GP v. LLMD, my LLMD is an internist (GP whatever you want to call it). It's also important to remember that it is largly patients who bestow the "title" LLMD on doctors. Not always true, sometimes doctors try to get more business with calling themselves LLMDs, but very common.

When patients start begging for money for treatment (by a particular doctor or not), it is the patient asking, not the doctor.

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Spanky
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Thu 29 Jul 2010 2:18

"minitails2":

When patients start begging for money for treatment (by a particular doctor or not), it is the patient asking, not the doctor.
Well, yes.

Of course.

But whose fees are they raising the money to pay?

And why?

Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge?

Cobwebby
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Cobwebby » Thu 29 Jul 2010 3:00

Maybe she's worser than you were Spanky !?

Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge?

That's a mighty big assumption. Wish it were true. :(
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

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Spanky
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Thu 29 Jul 2010 5:10

"Cobwebby":
Maybe she's worser than you were Spanky !?
Did you read what I was saying about how bad I was? Maybe not the absolute worst ever...but pretty damned bad. (I am bad, bad, still. I am a BAD man). :D

S: Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge?

Cobby:
That's a mighty big assumption. Wish it were true.
Well, isn't it true, though? How do you know it isn't? See, if you go the "LLMD" route...you never get to find out, do you?

But that's really not an "assumption", I don't think.

That's what the IDSA and the mainstream says, based on research studies...evidence...not anecdotal reports.

Now, what I am saying is clearly anecdotal and subjective. Admittedly. Yes.

But what I am saying is that my experience seems to pretty much reflect what the mainstream says...like it or not. Seems to be mostly consistent with what they say.

And if that is true...(and I am saying that it seems perfectly plausible to me, based on my own experience)... then it would seem to me that Lyme patients are getting absolutely fleeced by some of these guys...paying way, way too much for completely unecessary Lyme treatment.

And remember...we are talking about the outcomes here. If we get the same outcome...restored to health...and I pay little, deductible and co-pays...and the "LLMD" guy goes heavily into debt because his LLMD won't accept insurance...then? Well, why?

And if so, then, the Lyme activists are supporting and encouraging this wholesale sheep-shearing of Lyme patients.

Interesting perspective? You see what I mean?

By not doing the "LLMD" thing, I am in a position to be a doubter. I have a perspective that those who did the "LLMD" thing, cannot share.

Those that buy into it...do the "LLMD" bit...well, they just have no way of seeing if they might have needed it or not...right?

And because they did, and spent a lot of hard-earned cash, and may have encouraged others to do so, also...they probably aren't exactly unbiased and may even have a powerful incentive, motive, to want to believe in the necessity of the "LLMD".

They want to believe they did the right thing...and when you spend money on something...that makes you a believer, too. You "buy into" it.

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Yvonne
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Yvonne » Thu 29 Jul 2010 9:19

Cobwebby wrote:Maybe she's worser than you were Spanky !?

Assuming that even the worst cases are curable with relatively inexpensive courses of oral antibiotics...then what could possibly justify the fees some of these "LLMD"s seem to charge?

That's a mighty big assumption. Wish it were true. :(
I wish it were true too. My daughters and I aren't better after courses of antibiotics. (and never seen a LLMD)


I agree with what Martian wrote :

Exactly, and this refutes what you were just saying. Further, it does not only seem so, it is a fact that no two people are exactly alike in how it affects them.
Listen to all,
plucking a feather from every passing goose,
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Cobwebby » Thu 29 Jul 2010 13:47

I did go the mainstream route- and it was only after the IDSA route FAILED me that I went to an LLMD.

That's one of my biggest regrets-that I trusted and relied on my PCP/GP . My declining health under his care resulted in two years of disability. It took an LLMD to bring me back to independence.
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

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Spanky
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Thu 29 Jul 2010 13:56

"
Yvonne":

[I wish it were true too. My daughters and I aren't better after courses of antibiotics. (and never seen a LLMD)
Well, here's the part, though, that I have not been mentioning...neither was I for a long, long, time.

We are talking about TEN years. And the problem there may be, yes, you don't feel better...but why not?

It is only after TEN YEARS that I feel like I am more or less back to where I was. And the only reason that I say that NOW...is because the heart stuff has finally calmed down.

And keep in mind that what we are all talking about here is our individual perceptions...based on our own experiences...and those are important to us...but what is more important is the experience of the whole...the general pattern.

I agree with what Martian wrote :

Exactly, and this refutes what you were just saying. Further, it does not only seem so, it is a fact that no two people are exactly alike in how it affects them.

UGH! (Pounding head on table)...

All right...

Look...that is probably my fault...I didn't express that very well...but I think Martian misunderstood what I was trying to say there. (And I very clearly said that no two people react the same way).

What I was trying to say is that I have always been aware that my case was probably somewhat...even dramatically... more severe. And the reason I was trying to say that was to suggest that even though I was that bad...I am now better, back to normal, with minimal treatment. Not because I planned it that way.

And that this has probably affected my view of what Lyme looks like...same as anyone else...but my own perspective is probably somewhat skewed to the worst end of it.

And this is not just my own reverse-bragging that I had it worse than you...(there's no points for that)...and I told Martian privately, before about this...that I had been in a setting with other Lyme patients and you could SEE the differences...how badly I stood out as being different. So noticeable, that a newly diagnosed girl started crying...and when she was asked, what's wrong...she points to me and says, "am I going to get like him"?

Not something you forget that easily. I was scaring the other patients.

And the point was...what we think of "Lyme disease" as being...very much depends on our own personal experiences with it. And so, what I was very badly, poorly trying to say is that when I see those accounts...they don't make sense to ME. Because of how I see Lyme. Me. Just me.

But what I did NOT say...is that I don't think, therefore, that those people do not have Lyme. You see? It is difficult for me...because of MY experience...to understand other, perhaps, less physically obvious cases. And everyone, does this, I think.

That is what I was trying to say...what we think of as being "Lyme" can be widely different from person-to-person.

Yes. Exactly. That's what I meant.

Simple point. Wasn't meant to suggest that anyone who claims they have had it for twenty years really doesn't have Lyme. I don't go around "judging" other people's cases based on my perceptions of my own...and Martian, in particular, is a very smart, well-informed guy, and he knows better than anyone. That wasn't what I meant...regardless of what anyone says...or how I managed to bungle, mangle what I was trying to say. I happened, even, to see here, recently...a thread where I was cautioning someone else that you can't do that...judge who does and doesn't have it. Wasn't what I meant.

I'm sorry that it came out that way...I'm sorry if anyone was upset or offended...but that really wasn't what was meant...or what I had in mind. And I will go a step further and say that I really, really don't care if Martian, me, you...anyone has Lyme or not. I just don't. Not the point.

The point was, actually, exactly what you and Martian just said...no two people are alike and I am aware of the impact of my own perspective.

Damn. Hopefully, I have demonstrated by now that I am smarter than that.

But, look... I am just asking questions here and trying to raise an issue. I really, really don't know.

But I would also have to say that from my perspective...Lymeland has the burden of proof issue turned upside down.

See, the controlled studies show results that are consistent with what I am saying...and that means that those who do not choose to follow those results in their treatment, bear the burden of offering convincing evidence that they are incorrect.

And really, the point here was about COST.

MONEY.
Last edited by Spanky on Thu 29 Jul 2010 14:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Spanky
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Spanky » Thu 29 Jul 2010 13:58

"Cobwebby":
I did go the mainstream route- and it was only after the IDSA route FAILED me that I went to an LLMD.
Well, what do you mean that it "failed" you, though?

You mean that your symptoms were not immediately relieved? That you were not "cured" of them?

Is that what you were expecting?

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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by X-member » Thu 29 Jul 2010 16:04

As I se it, there is:

1: Cured Lyme without any restsymptoms
2: Cured Lyme with remaining symptoms (ABX will not work on this symtoms)
3: Active Chronic Lyme that ABX work on
4: Active Chronic Lyme that ABX don't work very well on (maybe due to co-infections or perhaps due to that some borrelia types are resistant to Doxy or other ABX)


You can not expect that ABX will work fast in chronic active Lyme, because is it hard to reach the bacteria when it is in biofilm colonies! You also have to have a combination´treatment, with different ABX that work intracellulary, have effect on cysts, that have effect on CWD/L-form and so on!

I hope I haven't spelled wrong now, I am in a hurry, my dog need a walk!

Cobwebby
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Re: LLMD--is it worth it? Cost/benefit of Lyme treatment?

Post by Cobwebby » Thu 29 Jul 2010 16:08

TEN YEARS to feel better! :o Holy Crab-Now I'm really glad that I went to an LLMD.

What I mean by failed is- my PCP treated me according to the IDSA guidelines-yet I continued to get worse, the Bb continued to disseminate . As one body system after another deteriorated-none of the mainstream specialists I was referred to was willing to address the issue of Lyme Disease with anything more than a shrug.
The cost and benefit of my treatment by an LLMD were priceless.
That's my perception and I'm sticking to it. :D

Spanky wrote:
"Cobwebby":
I did go the mainstream route- and it was only after the IDSA route FAILED me that I went to an LLMD.
Well, what do you mean that it "failed" you, though?

You mean that your symptoms were not immediately relieved? That you were not "cured" of them?

Is that what you were expecting?
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

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