Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

For everything that is related to Lyme and/or Lymeland, but doesn't fit in the other forums. Speak your mind, connect, ask help, etc.
Martian
Posts: 1944
Joined: Thu 26 Jul 2007 18:29
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands

Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Martian » Thu 6 Jan 2011 15:04

With Lymeland deteriorating year by year, and all hope seems to have gone down to a great despair, it's delightful to encounter a little spark to cling to that not all of Lymeland has been taken over by the pod people... yet. To get to the point: I think I found rare intelligent life in Lymeland: "Camp Other".

I just encountered the following topic in which "Camp Other" formulates a dissenting opinion, which is hard to tolerate for a certain "Tincup", and so "Camp Other" gets under attack. Funny thing is that "Tincup" suggested "Camp Other" to go back to LymeNet Europe. I take that as a compliment. :mrgreen:

It's just a matter of time before "Camp Other" gets "dipped in applebutter and hung on a barb-wired fence to bake in the sun" for critical thinking and not obeying to the dogma's of the LymeNUT church.

This is topic LLMD litigation - cut it out in forum Activism at LymeNet Flash.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb ... pic/8/2573


Posted by a mom (Member # 23920) on 12-17-2010 09:17 PM:

Do Lyme patients sue their LLMDs?

I would think that is like shooting yourself in the head...?


(...)


Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on 12-18-2010 08:14 PM:

So sorry to say, this was to be expected, but so unfortunate.

Last legislative session the Nat Cap group, a legislator or two and followers raised cain and demanded the Maryland Board of Physicians (medical board) re-examine the policy that was already in place to protect our LLMD's, after bills they were trying to push through failed.

The doc protection policy, that has worked all these years to keep our docs from being charged for over diagnosing and over treating Lyme disease, had been published by the DHMH and the Board several years ago as assurance for us after we worked on the Task Force.

Maryland was one of the few states that had an agreement in place and it was working.

The sad thing is, there was NO NEED to mess with doc protection bills, task force bills, legislators and the Board. I shouted from the mountain top, but no one listened.

And... because of the pressure that was put on the Board, the Board did address the situation (like giving the fox the keys to the hen house).. and not only did its efforts take us from being one of the best states in the country to the worst for our LLMD's...

It also set the standard of care for our state (a total disaster- and now we have no up to date ILADS guidelines, an even worse situation) ... and it also denied another doc from having a license to practice here at the same time.

In my opinion, our LLMD's don't stand a chance now if they get sued or brought up on charges.

I suggest if you want help with your docs situation that you or your doctor contact the DC group and ask them to address the mess they are responsible for creating. From what I understand, some at ILADS were supporting this bad move too. Perhaps they could help?

Maybe they could, at the very least, come up with some money for the lawyer fees our docs are faced with paying because of this horrible move.

The other groups here are quite busy trying to help those in trouble and also trying to find hundreds of sick patients new doctors for those that have been left without any help. The desperate folks contacting us- well, it is enough to break your heart.

Bless your doctor for all he/she did and I am sorry this is happening. I've done all I could for over 20 years, as have the other Maryland groups and national group, to protect them. It is a shame it was all destroyed in one stupid move because someone wanted to mess in the legislative arena and didn't think or do the prep it takes to do it right.


Posted by Camp Other (Member # 29797) on 12-23-2010 06:56 PM:

I value the work that LLMDs do to help people get their lives back. Without the help I've received from my doctor, I do not think I would have made some of the progress I made.

That said, I want to play devil's advocate here: At what point do you think it is okay to sue any doctor, LLMD or otherwise?

The reader who looks at the recent Chicago Tribune article might wonder if Dr. R is really guilty, but when they read about the story of Dr. R, I'm sure many of them are emotionally moved to being disturbed if not angry. They feel upset that patients are being harmed and that it's absurd that it would cost one patient $15,000. for a month of treatment.

And I think most Lyme patients would think that price tag was absurd. Just recently someone on a mailing list said IV Rocpehin could be arranged for a month for $300-400, if the patient was willing to mix their own. Someone else on a site said their insurance was billed $9 k for 9 weeks of both IV Rocephin and (I think) Zithromax given in the hospital. I have a hard time not seeing that $15 k/mo isn't taking unfair advantage of patients.

Money aside, if what they wrote about Dr. R is true in regards to one of her patients, it is very scary indeed. Imagine if that patient were you, and you had a heart attack and were vomiting up blood in the ICU? I've gone to the ER for pain when it was horrible and been given the run-around by ignorant doctors - that's one thing. Annoying as that is, this patient's situation was critical and of greater severity.

I would like to see all doctors being held to the same standards regardless of what they treat - they should be held accountable. It shouldn't be okay for doctors to do anything they want just to see what happens and to walk away from a patient who is having a rough time.

I myself have a limit to what I'm going to accept in terms of what a doctor asks or tells me to do, and at times have taken treatment breaks because my body told me "enough" - even though my doctor would've liked to have me continue.

Surely there is a point for everyone on this list where they look at what their doctor asks them to try, and they say no? Is there any external standard which Lyme patients can agree to, to say certain practices are not acceptable to them as a whole?

One horrible downside to this article is that they only refer to and showcase doctors who have had disciplinary charges against them and one charlatan pushing his wares. They didn't mention the doctors who treat Lyme Disease who are making reasonable treatment decisions based on research available and who do thorough medical histories and check differential diagnoses. They didn't look at a few alternative treatments which have some research to back their use, either. Of course not. That wouldn't be making the authors' point for them.

And of course, they didn't mention that a number of LLMDs have disciplinary actions against them because the insurance companies are investigating their use of long-term IV antibiotics which they don't want to fund. Insurance companies investigate lots of doctors all the time so they can find a way to reject covering treatments, and for the sake of this article, authors singled out Lyme. But this always was a superficial ad hominem filled position piece to begin with and not true investigative journalism... it did what it was intended to, and that was stir up people and get eyeballs on it.


*** edited names of LLMD's .. see terms of use ***

[ 12-23-2010, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]


Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on 12-23-2010 09:26 PM:

Ho Ho Ho Camp Other...

You have a way with words. Many of them. Many many of them. My bet is you could out-word me in a contest and that IS saying something.

[lol]

Your new blog site is pretty. I am amazed you managed to type out 53 pages of blog postings in under 4 days... and it is all focused on what is contained in one newspaper article. WOW! That's a lot of thinking going on.

The problem for me is it appears you already know the answers to the questions you ask, or you think you do.

And you ask so many questions! YIKES!

I'm sorry I can't keep up with all the back and forth going on to begin to respond.

Maybe the folks at LymeNet Europe can follow your train of thought better than LymeNet folks.. or at least better than I can?

Good luck! Merry Christmas.

[Big Grin]


Posted by Camp Other (Member # 29797) on 12-23-2010 09:51 PM:

Hi Tincup... What an unusual name. May I ask why you chose Tincup?

I really outword you? Seriously? Doubt it since it says you have over 10 k posts right here on the site!

Thanks for your compliment. 53 pages? No way! I didn't write that much in 4 days. I wrote my entries offline ever since the Chicago Tribune article came out, and worked hard at it until I posted them one at a time. I'm not THAT fast!

You said, "The problem for me is it appears you already know the answers to the questions you ask, or you think you do."

What does that mean? I actually don't. It's one of the reasons I'm here. It's why I asked what people think.

You also said, "And you ask so many questions! YIKES!"

Well, I guess I do in my critique of the CT article, but the point there is that I'm trying to ask the questions the public should be asking as well as the media. The authors of that article didn't seem to dig too deep into the issue of Lyme, and I think they should have looked at a lot more. I also think the public should analyze what they read rather than swallow it wholesale because it has played to their emotions and preexisting sentiment about the medical system.

You also said, "Maybe the folks at LymeNet Europe can follow your train of thought better than LymeNet folks.. or at least better than I can?"

Why? What is difficult about following what I've posted here? Or are you referring back to my blog?

"Good luck! Merry Christmas."

You too.


(...)


Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on 12-24-2010 01:13 AM:

Onbam said.. "You can't reach a middle ground with people who don't play fair."

BINGO!!!!!! You said it all!

Good response Onbam! I love it!

[Big Grin]

CampOther- that name reminds me of a concept that I've heard used before, by someone who was not really all that nice. But anyhow...

There are over 100 questions asked in your few blog posts, way too many for me to want to try to think about, or deal with, or address while reading. Especially when it is Ho Ho Ho time!

Maybe others enjoy that back and forth stuff, but, as I already eluded to, it's not me. Sorry.

Your short response to me here- about my short response to you- has about 8 more questions in it. And if you'll notice, you've sort of answered some of them yourself.

Your style reminded me of one or two x-members that use to post here before they were booted off. That is why I suggested you go back to LymeNet Europe.

If they weren't booted off there yet, maybe they would enjoy your back and forth style and want to tackle your questions.


[Big Grin]


Posted by Camp Other (Member # 29797) on 12-24-2010 01:54 AM:

""You can't reach a middle ground with people who don't play fair."

So what is the alternative? I thought Pamela Weintraub was advocating that both sides have to work towards the middle ground - that's what she said at October's IOM workshop. And I believe her.

I'm not sure what the steps are to do so, but from what I've seen, the adversarial approach hasn't worked so well to change the minds of the people who say their guidelines are the rule - so how does anyone work for middle ground without giving up the truth? Is more research needed with larger groups of patients to show the evidence that cannot be denied that Chronic Lyme is real? Dr. L seems to think so. Maybe that would change things?

"CampOther- that name reminds me of a concept that I've heard used before, by someone who was not really all that nice. But anyhow..."

Sorry to hear that. I picked the name, and my friends seem to think I'm pretty nice. I'm sorry you were reminded of someone who was not really all that nice. =(

"There are over 100 questions asked in your few blog posts, way too many for me to want to try to think about, or deal with, or address while reading. Especially when it is Ho Ho Ho time!"

Well, then ignore my blog posts, and just reply to what I've written here, anyway. Anyone can read my blog if they like, or not. There's plenty here to talk about on Lymenet.

And if you want to enjoy Christmas, hey, why are you on here? =D Maybe it's time to try something else like play a game or watch a movie?

"Your short response to me here- about my short response to you- has about 8 more questions in it. And if you'll notice, you've sort of answered some of them yourself."

Um. 8? Like this one? Or this? These are rhetorical questions, darn it, and they don't count!

Funny. I didn't think I asked that many questions here. =/

"Your style reminded me of one or two x-members that use to post here before they were booted off. That is why I suggested you go back to LymeNet Europe."

Um, am I doing something wrong? If I'm breaking the rules somehow, please tell me, but I just came here to ask questions.

What did these former members do that got them booted off? Yikes. I don't want to get booted off.
=(

**edited name of LLMD**

[ 12-24-2010, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]


(...)

Note: "Camp Other" has a nice blog about Lyme disease: http://campother.blogspot.com/
Camp Other

In the challenge to understand Lyme Disease and its co-infections, Camp Other is looking to move away from the highly controversial and politically charged divide between the Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) camp and the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) camp. Where is this middle ground Pam Weintraub spoke of at the October 2010 Institute of Medicine Workshop?

Camp Other
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:32
Contact:

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:42

Tincup never said who she thought I was - I've never been a member of Lymenet Europe before.

I haven't been dipped in apple butter and strung out on a barbed wire fence, either. Yet. Guess I should prepare my flakjacket, just in case?

Now that I'm here, I would like to entertain one question:

Why is the culture of this board so vastly different from the other one?

rlstanley
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon 3 Dec 2007 2:53

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by rlstanley » Wed 2 Mar 2011 22:47

C.O.:
...Why is the culture of this board so vastly different from the other one?
As for LNE: the admin. makes or breaks the place;he has no conflicts of interest or political agendas. Oh, and he is one tough cookie & smart & been hangin' around LL for many years. His views on censorship are quite advanced as far as LL standards go.
.

Camp Other
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:32
Contact:

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Wed 2 Mar 2011 22:59

rlstanley wrote:
C.O.:
...Why is the culture of this board so vastly different from the other one?
As for LNE: the admin. makes or breaks the place;he has no conflicts of interest or political agendas. Oh, and he is one tough cookie & smart & been hangin' around LL for many years. His views on censorship are quite advanced as far as LL standards go.
.
I understand there's a difference in policies in terms of how differently each is administrated and what sort of content is acceptable. Do you think that largely shapes the topics that are discussed here - or is it more likely that the participants on this board have different interests and a different experience of managing Lyme disease and coinfections because of being in Europe (in general) and not in North America?

My initial contact with news about Lyme disease treatment in Europe is either about how the NHS and Breakspear in the UK or BCA in Germany has treated patients. I admit my knowledge about how Lyme disease and other tickborne infections is treated as a political and social issue in Europe at large is limited, and hope to learn more about it.

rlstanley
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon 3 Dec 2007 2:53

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by rlstanley » Wed 2 Mar 2011 23:08

The people who post here are not limited to living in Europe at all. A number of us are from the USA.

I, for one, appreciate how the admin allows for open discussion of relevant topics without censorship unless one tries to rip the board apart with nonsense, sheer nastiness, crap that truly makes it impossible to have some sort of rational discussion.
.

Camp Other
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:32
Contact:

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Thu 3 Mar 2011 2:21

I haven't been aware of what percentage of the membership is from North America or outside of Europe in general, and made a baseline assumption (until I learned more) that the majority of members would be from Europe. I'm new here, and learning is part of the process.

I have looked at Lymenet Europe before, mainly the resources on the homepage and linked my site to a few because they were invaluable. But I have only begun reading more of the forum recently and can see that topics and rules are different here. So far, I appreciate the differences and look forward to drama-free (or at least lower drama) discussions here.

Camp Other
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:32
Contact:

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Mon 7 Mar 2011 23:29

Well, I've been banned on another forum. Guess I'll be reading here more.

Martian
Posts: 1944
Joined: Thu 26 Jul 2007 18:29
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Martian » Tue 8 Mar 2011 0:37

Camp Other wrote:Well, I've been banned on another forum. Guess I'll be reading here more.
Let me guess... guilty of having disapproved thoughts?

Camp Other
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:32
Contact:

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Tue 8 Mar 2011 1:54

No, I'm guessing that it's apparently about just posting there, first, and then secondly, posting about it again, here - that I was concerned Lyme patients wouldn't be taken seriously if they kept posting about conspiracy theories (especially if they cited sources with a lower index of plausibility).

I'm willing to discuss any of a number of topics including conspiracy theories with anyone - and if they are taking them seriously - then the level of evidence needed to support their argument has to be high.

I don't know which rule I broke entirely, to be honest. I received no warning. I originally thought the thread I participated on had just been shut down, and that was the end of it - it did drift off topic a lot. Then I ended up unable to log in this afternoon. I posted about it in my blog.

Martian
Posts: 1944
Joined: Thu 26 Jul 2007 18:29
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands

Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Martian » Tue 8 Mar 2011 2:33

Let me sum this all up...

  • repeatedly asking critical and sceptical questions.
  • forming and expressing your own opinions about Lyme disease.
  • arguing with Tincup (actually it's visa versa, but that doesn't matter over there).
  • being an active poster on the eelvil "ILADS unfriendly" LNE.
  • making critical comments about "forum X", no matter how cautiously.
  • and perhaps the worst of them all: questioning the existence of chemtrails. :shock:
Verdict: you are guilty of crimethink.


Here you have one of the reasons why this board is so vastly different from the police state Lyme board.


Oh BTW, I forgot to say: welcome to LNE! :)

Post Reply