Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

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Camp Other
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Tue 8 Mar 2011 3:43

Let me sum this all up...

You are guilty of:

[*]repeatedly asking critical and sceptical questions.[/b]

And this is an issue, why? You can still ask critical and skeptical questions by playing devil's advocate and holding a contrary view, and also respond to them in the same manner. No one has to give up what they truly think - it's just a useful mental exercise to see if you have blind spots. Are people that threatened by this approach?

[*]forming and expressing your own opinions about Lyme disease.[/b]

Actually, I'm not entirely sure how different my opinion is from that of other Lyme disease patients there - I am making an effort to learn as much as I can about different reasons why people have persistent symptoms. I'm not entirely altruistically motivated, either - I'm tired of being in pain and want answers. I may not find the answers that solve my pain problem, but at least I'll learn something along the way.

[*]arguing with Tincup (actually it's visa versa, but that doesn't matter over there).[/b]

I completely did not understand her role in this. She was abrupt towards me when I first posted there, and I had no idea what she was talking about in referring to my reminding her of someone else as well as other comments. It was a bit jarring. And now with this latest thread... well, I would've been content to continue talking about ethics and experimentation more, but access to that is denied to me. I think the thread may even have been removed - not sure.

[*]being an active poster on the eelvil "ILADS unfriendly" LNE.[/b]

I've noticed that you are totally willing to criticize ILADS here. In the US, though, that is your option and the only way you can get treatment - it is rare to find a non-ILADS doctor who treats longer term, though they exist. Which does leave me with a curious question: Which doctors treat you for tickborne infections? Is there some equivalent group of doctors in the EU that patients see, or are they simply independent and don't have their own organization? I know some patients in the UK go to Breakspear, and some in DE go to BCA. But I don't know about doctors there in general.

[*]making critical comments about "forum X", no matter how cautiously.[/b]

I already asked those on the thread if they thought about what their detractors might think. Being told they didn't care bothered me, because I thought it reflected poorly on me and other Lyme patients. I came here partially to mention it, but I didn't hide behind another username. When asked, I'd talk about it directly if it had been brought up. I was just a bit taken aback that they wouldn't have cared - especially after the newspaper had a field day in December.

[*]and perhaps the worst of them all: questioning the existence of chemtrails. :shock:[/b]

What on earth is wrong with that? We could have had a more intelligent conversation about it if they'd given it half a chance. The conversation on that thread seemed to be more like a pile-on of links rather than a dialogue, and by the time I'd gotten through reading even a fraction of them, the thread moved on. Even if I were completely healthy and well-slept, I couldn't have responded to everything posted. Again - links more than dialogue.

And one could have linked their pet theories to Lyme disease by stating chemtrails could be weakening the immune system, thus leading people to get Bb more easily... but from where I sit that is a stretch - you have to prove chemtrails are capable of causing that weakening.

Verdict: you are guilty of crimethink.

Hm. Never been charged with any crime before. In fact, being skeptical, forming my own opinions, and being critical have all been skills my employers wanted me to have... if I ditched those, I wouldn't have gotten the work I've had.

Here you have one of the reasons why this board is so vastly different from the police state Lyme board.

I'm getting that, yes.

Still do wonder how you would run your own online forum in the US, though, if you had to deal with the health care system and insurers there... Do you think you could run it pretty much the same way, or would you change things?

Camp Other
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Tue 8 Mar 2011 4:08

I know, I now have more time to devote to my blog and calling up other researchers... I'm just disappointed things went this way.

minitails2
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by minitails2 » Wed 9 Mar 2011 9:52

Camp Other,
Don't feel badly about getting banned. Most people who question or just generally people with brain tend to get banned at LN. You aren't the first and you won't be the last. I've been there myself. I got banned because I asked too many questions about MMS and didn't get along too well with Tincup. She seems to have God's ear when it comes to bannings. Welcome to the club!

Martian
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Martian » Thu 10 Mar 2011 14:30

People at LymeNUT are wondering about "Camp Other" now...
This is topic Camp Other???? in forum General Support at LymeNet Flash.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb ... ic/3/27061


Posted by feelfit (Member # 12770) on 03-09-2011 08:06 PM:

tried to PM this person and it appears that they are no longer a member??? Ck'ed out Camp Others blog and they appear to have been banned from LN.

More censoring here?? I always found CO to be well researched and very helpful, not to mention, respectful, even when someone else here wasn't giving Camp Other respect in return.

The most credible people seem to 'disappear' from this site with great regularity...maybe that is why very few old timers are left at all.

no help in seeking a doctor, advice given out willy-nilly without respect potential harm etc.

the voice of reason is always silenced...Condor, Keebler, Camp Other....and many who went before them. Sad.

The grotesque nauseating self-righteous hypocrite Tincup spoketh:
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on 03-09-2011 11:54 PM:

For the newer folks asking questions....

The moderators- a tough job it is- can't "ban" anyone (it isn't within their power or ability).

Also, it is not their responsibility to explain to other members the decisions made by them about other members, or by those who can ban members when needed.

The owner of LymeNet sets the rules here, as is done on most other sites. The owner can and will ban those who break the rules and the owner does not owe anyone an explanation.

Very few members (and there are over 22,000 just on this latest version of LymeNet) have ever been banned over the many many years LymeNet has been accessible to and helping patients.

I personally have not seen anyone banned that didn't deserve it and I'd guess the number of people banned (true members- not trolls) has been maybe as many as 10, at the most.


Just so you know... here are the rules everyone agrees to abide by when joining LymeNet.

Hope that helps.

http://www.lymenet.org/terms.shtml
Essentially Tincup is saying:
  • Camp Other deserved to be banned.
  • almost all the dozens of members who have been banned at LymeNUT over the years were not true members but trolls.
  • the few true members that were banned, deserved it.
It's not clear to me whether Tincup considers Camp Other to be a true member or a troll.

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Spanky
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Spanky » Thu 10 Mar 2011 21:12

"
Martian":

The grotesque nauseating self-righteous hypocrite Tincup spoketh:
"Interesting" comment, Martian...

...sounds very much like a personal attack...which I had thought was supposedly beneath the standards of LNE.

I think that you have to be careful that in opposing, you just don't become the mirror-image of what it is that you are opposed to.

And...

...some of the talk about censorship, here, lately...strikes me as a bit odd, also...

...wasn't there a rather lengthy and rather contentious thread here...about whether an LLMD was necessary or not?...that is now entirely missing?

Perhaps the administrator can explain...

Camp Other
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Camp Other » Thu 10 Mar 2011 21:43

Martian wrote:People at LymeNUT are wondering about "Camp Other" now...
This is topic Camp Other???? in forum General Support at LymeNet Flash.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb ... ic/3/27061


Posted by feelfit (Member # 12770) on 03-09-2011 08:06 PM:

tried to PM this person and it appears that they are no longer a member??? Ck'ed out Camp Others blog and they appear to have been banned from LN.

More censoring here?? I always found CO to be well researched and very helpful, not to mention, respectful, even when someone else here wasn't giving Camp Other respect in return.

The most credible people seem to 'disappear' from this site with great regularity...maybe that is why very few old timers are left at all.

no help in seeking a doctor, advice given out willy-nilly without respect potential harm etc.

the voice of reason is always silenced...Condor, Keebler, Camp Other....and many who went before them. Sad.

The grotesque nauseating self-righteous hypocrite Tincup spoketh:
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on 03-09-2011 11:54 PM:

For the newer folks asking questions....

The moderators- a tough job it is- can't "ban" anyone (it isn't within their power or ability).

Also, it is not their responsibility to explain to other members the decisions made by them about other members, or by those who can ban members when needed.


The owner of LymeNet sets the rules here, as is done on most other sites. The owner can and will ban those who break the rules and the owner does not owe anyone an explanation.


Very few members (and there are over 22,000 just on this latest version of LymeNet) have ever been banned over the many many years LymeNet has been accessible to and helping patients.

I personally have not seen anyone banned that didn't deserve it and I'd guess the number of people banned (true members- not trolls) has been maybe as many as 10, at the most.


Just so you know... here are the rules everyone agrees to abide by when joining LymeNet.

Hope that helps.

http://www.lymenet.org/terms.shtml
Essentially Tincup is saying:
  • Camp Other deserved to be banned.
  • almost all the dozens of members who have been banned at LymeNUT over the years were not true members but trolls.
  • the few true members that were banned, deserved it.
It's not clear to me whether Tincup considers Camp Other to be a true member or a troll.
Your analysis seems to fit, at least to some degree. I'm not sure if the logic follows on all of it because I haven't tracked who got banned over T period of time over x infraction (or suspected infraction).

If I broke a rule, then I'd think correction is needed - a warning, especially if new to a group - before dumping me. I might inadvertently break a rule not knowing it's a rule and need a reminder - especially if none of the other places where I post have that same rule. But I guess that doesn't apply here - it's not their policy and it seems they can ban anyone without warning or explanation.

That said, Tincup had a run-in of some sort with me early on, and even implied I was someone else - who, remains to be seen. To treat me as if I am someone else without evidence is poor form, in my opinion.

(Do take note of the text I put in orange. It seems the owner holds the deck.)

I have only been told 2 possibilities for my banning from anonymous or near-anonymous others:

- That I engaged a troll, and that led to me getting banned. Nonsensical - if one takes the bait from a troll, wouldn't the troll be the banned one or at least warned?

- That because I posted something here about the poor evidence displayed on their forum there that I broke a rule. If so, I didn't even know this was a rule. And I still think a warning would have been warranted before a ban.

I now wonder how many people here are former members of that forum - or who are on both, but just post here under a different identity. In my attempts to be transparent and consistent, the hammer gets the nail anyway.

It's been overwhelming to see just how many people responded to my blog, and I wasn't expecting it. It got back to me through word of mouth that Pamela Weintraub posted on her Facebook about my blog, and now Facebook is sending me gobs of traffic. Crazy.

I want to go back to writing about Ixodes ticks and xenodiagnosis next - it's taking me a while to put that article together, so a Friday Four is probably my next post - I am on a short deadline to get that posted.

Things will calm down eventually?

Martian
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Martian » Thu 10 Mar 2011 23:12

Spanky wrote:...some of the talk about censorship, here, lately...strikes me as a bit odd, also...

...wasn't there a rather lengthy and rather contentious thread here...about whether an LLMD was necessary or not?...that is now entirely missing?
That thread had serious issues... over 300 posts and hardly any substantial information and discussion about what the topic supposedly was about, but rather never-ending arguing and rambling.

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Spanky
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Spanky » Thu 10 Mar 2011 23:32

"Martian":

That thread had serious issues... over 300 posts and hardly any substantial information and discussion about what the topic supposedly was about, but rather never-ending arguing and rambling.
I certainly agree. As I recall, I started the thread. And what I had intended became widely misinterpreted...to my complete frustration.

But I hope that you are not suggesting that is somehow a justification for making it "disappear".

What you just said seems to indicate that the thread was removed because of its content...what was said within the thread...not for any breaking of forum rules. Isn't that what is currently being criticized at Lymenet, within this very thread?

And okay...but if you're going to do that...then I would suggest to you that you need to inform people that you feel free to remove their remarks...and in particular, not accuse other forums of being hypocrites, for what this board seems to feel free to do, itself.

Is it censorship only when someone else does it?

Who's to say, after all, whether a thread is problematic, has "serious issues"?

I remember a similarly contentious thread being "locked down"...but last I looked...it was still here.

Why did that one get removed?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Look...what I originally had in mind was a sort of experiment. I tried to put out a simple anecdotal reverse of the often-quoted "you have to have an LLMD" to get better. I simply stated that I recovered without the services of one. I was NOT recommending that anyone do as I did...or didn't...and several times stated that I really had no choice in the matter. In fact, I would never recommend that anyone do what I did. The idea was to simply get people to think about what that means.

Martian
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Martian » Thu 10 Mar 2011 23:58

Spanky wrote:What you just said seems to indicate that the thread was removed because of its content...what was said within the thread...not for any breaking of forum rules.
Arguing, rambling, disinformation, spam, a.o., may get removed from LNE. It's that simple. If you want to consider that to be censorship of content.... fine.

And okay...but if you're going to do that...then I would suggest to you that you need to inform people that you feel free to remove their remarks.
The LNE terms of use in fact do say so:
"You agree that “LymeNet Europe” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit."

Spanky wrote:Who's to say, after all, whether a thread is problematic, has "serious issues"?
That's up to me here at LNE.

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Spanky
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Re: Rare intelligent life found in Lymeland: "Camp Other"

Post by Spanky » Fri 11 Mar 2011 0:10

"Martian":

Arguing, rambling, disinformation, spam, a.o., may get removed from LNE. It's that simple. If you want to consider that to be censorship of content.... fine.
Well, as I said, though, I think that you have to realize that what one person considers to be problematic...may differ considerably from what another considers to be a "serious issue"...and there needs to be some form of guidance so that people have some sort of idea what offends and is subject to removal. A lot of people, yourself included, participated in that thread.

There were some serious and important issues being discussed, particularly in regard to iv usage in the treatment of Lyme disease.

And again...as I said, locking down a thread is one thing. Removing it in its entirety is another.
"Spanky": Who's to say, after all, whether a thread is problematic, has "serious issues"?

Martian" That's up to me here at LNE.
I see.

And may I ask you if you've considered how that position makes you any different from the people you are currently criticizing at Lymenet?

And may I ask you if what you just said shouldn't be considered to be a bit (perhaps more than a bit) disprespectful of the people who post here?

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