What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

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Martian
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What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

Post by Martian » Fri 18 Nov 2011 5:21

Some controversial topics come along in lymeland again and again, often leading to superficial discussions so that questions are never really answered. It would be better, more productive and beneficial, to discuss such topics thoroughly and really get somewhere.

I suggest we think about which controversial topics to discuss critically. The topics should be as specific as possible. When we agree on a topic, a thread is started with an opening post and a topic title that clearly outlines what the discussion has to be about.

Of course the discussions should be substantial, based on reasonable argumentation and evidence, and the goal should be fact-finding. The discussions must remain on-topic.

I suggest to create topics in the form of question, unless it's not possible. The question helps a lot defining a specific topic and the goal of it: trying to find the answer.

Some suggestions I can think of:
  • Is Lyme disease sexually transmitted?
  • Are ticks causing Bartonellosis in humans?
  • Does chronic Lyme disease exist?
  • Is longer-term antibiotic treatment useful?
  • Does Borrelia burgdorferi form biofilms?
  • Is the CD57 test useful with Lyme disease?

LymeH
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Re: What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

Post by LymeH » Fri 18 Nov 2011 16:04

An additional topic about patient exploitation should continue for discussion and never be censored as in other forums (not to imply that LNE censors anything). It is an important topic and people need to be aware and informed of the dangers.


http://relative-risk.blogspot.com/2011/ ... eting.html
*Humor and sarcasm aside, this really isn’t funny. A lot of sick people (some of whom might actually have a Lyme infection) likely are being taken advantage of or treated inappropriately. It’s hard to know what to do about it, but at the least, the California medical licensing board is only a click away.

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Spanky
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Re: What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

Post by Spanky » Fri 18 Nov 2011 17:44

"Martian":
Some controversial topics come along in lymeland again and again, often leading to superficial discussions so that questions are never really answered. It would be better, more productive and beneficial, to discuss such topics thoroughly and really get somewhere.
Well, wouldn't it save time to develop a list of topics that aren't controversial in Lymeland? :D

But may I ask what you mean when you say "...really get somewhere"?

What is the desired goal you anticipate there?

To my mind, what is important about LNE is the availability of another perspective. Too often, patient forums on Lyme disease are censored, restricted to only one point of view.

But the value of that is reflected in an understanding that the patient's persepctive...view of the controversy has profound impact on the healthcare decisions that patient may make...and those decisions will, in turn, have great impact on the patient's health...and financial health.

So, for me, I think it is highly unrealistic to imagine that you are going to solve anything on an online forum like this, or even shed any real light on it, other to repeat what others say elsewhere.

But science, I think it has been said..."is a way of thinking."

And, I think that critical thinking and analysis of issues can lead to better understanding. And better healthcare choices can flow from that.

And these online discussions can often be emotionally-charged. One constructive criticism that I would ask the Admin here to consider...is that in the past, when rules against personal attack have been blatantly violated...no action is apparently taken until the discussion becomes lost entirely and becomes a quarrel. (And then, in one notable case, to insist that the target had "provoked" those attacks. That's not an excuse. No one is forced to make those type of remarks).

I think that personal attack should be stepped on immediately, and visibly, and uniformly, if the Admin wants to preserve some atmosphere of rational discussion. You simply can't allow one perspective to name-call and bully the other.

Another involves "off topic" meanderings. Sometimes the subject being discussed in those "meanderings' flow naturally from what was immediately said just before. And if the Admin was personally involved in those 'meanderings' and discussions...and then stops them, mid-stream on the basis that they were "off topic"...well, it's confusing, to say the least.

But people are ultimately responsible for what they want to believe.

I think, realistically, you can put it out there..."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

Martian
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Re: What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

Post by Martian » Fri 18 Nov 2011 18:26

In summary, this is the proposal:
  1. Decide which specific topics to investigate.
  2. Put a topic idea into the form of a question.
  3. Try to answer that question with fact-finding.
  4. Use reasonable argumentation and evidence.

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Spanky
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Re: What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

Post by Spanky » Fri 18 Nov 2011 18:52

Martian wrote:In summary, this is the proposal:
  1. Decide which specific topics to investigate.
  2. Put a topic idea into the form of a question.
  3. Try to answer that question with fact-finding.
  4. Use reasonable argumentation and evidence.

Yeah, got that.

With all due respect, though...I think it is kind of pointless to try to force discussions into some little 'box' or category. Just my thoughts. You asked.

Just let people talk. And sometimes, some very important insights can come out of a "meandering" off-topic digression. (Like the one that got stepped on yesterday).

Now, do you wish to share any thoughts you might have about the "ad hominem" issue that I raised here?

(Edited to add):

Because if the rules concerning personal remarks are NOT enforced...and enforced so that others can see they are being enforced...what point is there in trying to have some sort of rational discussion?

You are sending a message that this sort of thing will be tolerated.

Camp Other
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Re: What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

Post by Camp Other » Fri 18 Nov 2011 23:43

Martian said:
Some suggestions I can think of:

Is Lyme disease sexually transmitted?
Are ticks causing Bartonellosis in humans?
Does chronic Lyme disease exist?
Is longer-term antibiotic treatment useful?
Does Borrelia burgdorferi form biofilms?
Is the CD57 test useful with Lyme disease?
I think these topics have been discussed a number of times here already. Would aiming for more specificity help to narrow the field and also come up with specific goals if you asked these questions instead?:

How could one determine whether or not Lyme disease can be sexually transmitted?
How could one design a study to determine if ticks can transmit Bartonella to human hosts?
What studies are necessary to determine once and for all whether Lyme disease can be a persistent infection after antibiotic treatment?
What kinds of studies which have not been conducted yet could be designed to show that longer-term antibiotic treatment could be useful for specific (name characteristics) patients based on in vitro studies and what is suspected about Bb's pathogenesis?
Outside of Sapi's studies, has any study provided evidence Bb forms biofilms, and what further studies could be done to determine that Bb forms biofilms (cite studies which have been used to determine existence of biofilms in other pathogens)?
How was the CD57 developed and is there any evidence that it has been useful for diagnosing and treating patients - if so, what evidence?

Phrasing questions this way moves the question into a realm of problem solving and could form the basis of making specific requests to researchers for more Lyme disease research.

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Spanky
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Re: What controversial topics to discuss on the LNE forum?

Post by Spanky » Mon 21 Nov 2011 20:32

Martian?

Question pending, here? What about the ad hominems?

Look...I said, and please take note..."constructive" criticism in regard to the frequent personal attacks and the board policy pertaining to the same.

And just to be clear, insofar as these comments have been directed at me...let me say that I could honestly care less. I have been hassled by pros in my time...and have been yelled at by judges...and have yelled back at judges. Like water off the back of a duck, you know...these remarks reflect far more on the persons making them than they, themselves, seem to realize.

And I fully realize that there have been instances where disciplinary action has had to be taken against a few...off board...quietly. What I am saying is that the parties need to be warned publicly so that all are aware.

But the problem, as I see it, is that when the 'Admin' remains silent in the face of these remarks...it could have, possibly, a chilling effect on others who may be reading, trying to decide whether they wish to participate or not. You can see the remarks...but you do not see any action being taken to keep peace and order on the board, which is essential for people to be able to exchange ideas and learn from each other on some sort of calm, rational, respectful basis.

I don't think that anyone who has been around Lymeland really has any doubts about where the vast majority of these remarks are coming from, or how they originate.

Online Lymeland is a very human, group behavior, socialization process. You often see examples of online "bonding" between people, who organize into groups and enforce group cohesiveness, order through certain techniques.

The 'LLMD' thing, I don't think is a cult, per se, but "cult-like". Very much so. With a fervent, quasi-religious type conviction in the righteousness of their 'cause'.

Opponents (those that they see as opponents, anyway)...are branded as "evil", wicked...or, as recently displayed here: "immoral", having a "bad attitude".

Ostracizing those who disagree is one of the time-worn techniques of the cult. You often see the example of "you're not one of us...no TRUE Lymie would say that".

But the personal attack often comes from a kind of schizophrenic cognitive split...the person with the 'cult-like' beliefs is confronted with evidence that directly conflicts with the deeply-held belief.

The result is name-calling and verbal abuse, sadly, in many instances, directed at the person who tried to communicate with them as to the false nature of the belief.

Now...my point is: that until there is some sense that this behavior will not be allowed...then the type of 'proposal' that you are now suggesting has little chance of success under the current atmosphere.

As I say, I could care less about the remarks, themselves...but I am constantly wondering why the Admin doesn't immediately step in and take control? Why, when I am behaving myself, according to forum rules, the Admin does not seem to 'have my back'?

(And, for the record, I was absolutely astonished when I was called a garbage dump full of names by a few when I first signed on here, in a blatant attempt to "bait" me into a confrontation...without a word from the Admin ). You cannot expect anyone to back down when attacked like that. And personally, I blame the mess that thread became...and others like it...on a failure to shut it off as soon as it becomes 'aggressive'. Immediately.



Now...as to the proposal itself...well, why don't you put forward an example of what you're talking about, then?

Kind of hard to get a sense of what exactly it is that you're talking about...

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