Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborrelios

[velvetmagnetta]

There must be some new research coming out proving the existence of "chronic" Lyme - not LATE-STAGE because we all already knew about that one. Chronic. Meaning ongoing, not dead, but alive and multiplying after plenty of antibiotic treatment - still wriggling and corkscrewing around in our tissues. Making little corkscrew babies. Chronic infection is not the same as post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome, is it?

What is this new research that has Auwaerter, Wormser, and hv running scared? It must be something big. Something undeniably chronic.

History is much more difficult to revise if it is all out there on a server somewhere on the internet!

[X-member]

I wrote earlier:

Or is it an infection that need to be treated "forever" they talk about?

This I think that IDSA claim don't exist.

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 725#p41734

[X-member]

ChronicLyme19 wrote earlier:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =10#p41770

X-member wrote:

IDSA actually do not deny chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis, but IDSA call it late (Lyme) neuroborreliosis instead.

But those can be two separate things.

No, chronic (Lyme) BORRELIOSIS (no matter if it is a neuroborreliosis or not and no matter if an earlier treatment has been given or not and no matter if some people need treatment "forever") only stands for late (Lyme) borreliosis.

But chronic Lyme disease has been used in (at least) two other meanings.

Edit to add:

The word: BORRELIOSIS stands for a borrelia infection!

[ChronicLyme19]

No, chronic (Lyme) BORRELIOSIS (no matter if it is a neuroborreliosis or not and no matter if an earlier treatment has been given or not and no matter if some people need treatment "forever") only stands for late (Lyme) borreliosis.

Not sure if this is worth debating anymore or if it's just getting lost in translation, but I respectfully disagree.

I would not consider all chronic lyme as late lyme. I'll give my own illness progression as an example. Chronic I take to mean either having the illness for an extended period of time (or the alternate definition of also being persistent post antibiotic treatment). Late lyme means when it has progressed to the arthritis or NB forms where it is particularly severe and disseminated.

For the first 6-8 months of my illness, I would have considered my illness early or early disseminated, not late stage because my symptoms were not late stage. I would have considered it chronic because I had had it for 8 months and had also failed a round of antibiotic treatment. So I don't necessarily think all chronic lyme has reached the late stage. The majority of the cases probably yes, but all? I disagree.

[X-member]

ChronicLyme19 wrote:

X-member wrote:

No, chronic (Lyme) BORRELIOSIS (no matter if it is a neuroborreliosis or not and no matter if an earlier treatment has been given or not and no matter if some people need treatment "forever") only stands for late (Lyme) borreliosis.

Not sure if this is worth debating anymore or if it's just getting lost in translation, but I respectfully disagree.

In that case maybe you should ask IDSA, ILADS or perhaps Dr Alan B MacDonald who is a member in this forum?

Edit to add:

EFNS guidelines on the diagnosis and management of European Lyme neuroborreliosis

http://icnapedia.org/guidelines/open/EF ... liosis.pdf

A quote:

Late neurological manifestations are also entitled chronic neuroborreliosis.

[velvetmagnetta]

X-member -

How would you distinguish an ongoing, recurring, long-term, active Lyme Borrelial infection that is still alive and pathogenic despite repeated antibiotic treatment from a late-stage infection that has been successfully treated?

[X-member]

The only thing I have tried to do is to explain what chronic Lyme neuroborreliosis (and chronic "non-neuroborreliosis") stands for.

If someone don't agree with the European experts about this, I can not do anything about it.

Edit to add:

I have now activated the thread below:

Signs of a still active, ongoing borrelia infection?

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =11&t=5226

[velvetmagnetta]

Please answer my question with an actual answer.

[X-member]

Since some people don't understand what this thread is about, I have now changed the name of the thread.

[X-member]

Maybe this also belong in this thread?

Lyme Neuroborreliosis Diagnosis and Treatment
Daniel Bremell

Dissertation

https://gupea.ub.gu.se/bitstream/2077/3 ... 5202_1.pdf

A quote:

The debated entity of “chronic Lyme disease”

The term chronic Lyme disease can have different meanings depending on
the opinion of the person concerned. Originally, chronic Lyme disease (or
chronic Lyme borreliosis or chronic Lyme neuroborreliosis, the terms are
used interchangeably), denoted Lyme borreliosis with a duration of
symptoms of more than six months, i.e. what is now more commonly
called late LB.