Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborrelios

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velvetmagnetta
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by velvetmagnetta » Fri 27 Mar 2015 15:40

Wow. You must be really fun at parties.

Late Lyme (DOES NOT ALWAYS) = Chronic Lyme

And plenty of people have gotten chronic Lyme from an acute infection. In that case it becomes Late Lyme eventually, but it can happen after the very early treatment of a bulls-eye rash. I believe it happens in 10-20% of all Lyme cases. It doesn't have to be Late to become Chronic.

You are incorrect. No matter how many times you say it or change a thread name to prove it. It doesn't make it true. I do not understand this crusade? Why confuse two very important issues?

X-member
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by X-member » Fri 27 Mar 2015 15:45

Ok, if you velvetmagnetta think that the 3 persons in the thread below was not diagnosed with late Lyme neuroborreliosis, then I think it is better that you contact the persons who wrote the article/study:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=5&t=5721

Martian
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Location: Friesland, the Netherlands

Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by Martian » Fri 27 Mar 2015 17:30

velvetmagnetta wrote:Wow. You must be really fun at parties.

Late Lyme (DOES NOT ALWAYS) = Chronic Lyme

And plenty of people have gotten chronic Lyme from an acute infection. In that case it becomes Late Lyme eventually, but it can happen after the very early treatment of a bulls-eye rash. I believe it happens in 10-20% of all Lyme cases. It doesn't have to be Late to become Chronic.

You are incorrect. No matter how many times you say it or change a thread name to prove it. It doesn't make it true. I do not understand this crusade? Why confuse two very important issues?
Can you please define "chronic Lyme"?

duncan
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by duncan » Fri 27 Mar 2015 19:12

Martian, I'm guessing most of us - especially those from the United States - can define "chronic Lyme" in at least two or three different ways, with each way arguably having a claim to legitimacy as strong as the others.

X-member
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by X-member » Fri 27 Mar 2015 20:14

The problem is that (at least) one person think that I and European experts are wrong about what the European diagnoses/definitions stands for.
Last edited by X-member on Fri 27 Mar 2015 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

velvetmagnetta
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by velvetmagnetta » Fri 27 Mar 2015 20:33

Let's start with the definition of the word "chronic".

According to Miriam-Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chronic
adjective chron·ic \ˈkrä-nik\

medical : continuing or occurring again and again for a long time

: happening or existing frequently or most of the time

: always or often doing something specified


Full Definition of CHRONIC

1)
a : marked by long duration or frequent recurrence : not acute <chronic indigestion> <chronic experiments>
b : suffering from a chronic disease <the special needs of chronic patients>

2)
a : always present or encountered; especially : constantly vexing, weakening, or troubling <chronic petty warfare>
b : being such habitually <a chronic grumbler>
This is what "chronic" means in English. Perhaps it has a different meaning elsewhere?

To me, it is obvious that an ongoing infection that lives on even after trying to kill it with antibiotics should be considered a "chronic" infection.

However, damage due to a past infection can be considered chronic pain or chronic disability. As an example, Polio was a devastating disease that left many people permanently disabled, but a lesser known issue is that it left some people with life-long chronic pain as well.

I wouldn't consider those people as having a chronic infection, but I would consider them as suffering from a chronic medical issue.

Herpes is a chronic infection that cannot be completely eradicated, although it can be controlled somewhat. Herpes is a chronic disease - it never dies completely.

Lyme disease may or may not be a chronic infection for some. I think we may not actually know yet whether Lyme disease is a chronic infection or not. What we do know is that it has left some of us with permanent health issues and others with chronic, recurring health issues.

Call me crazy, but it seems chronic Lyme disease is when you are infected despite antibiotic treatment and experience periodic resurgences of symptoms.

If the infection is dead, but you are still experiencing pain, that would not be a chronic Lyme infection. I suppose, if your health problems originally stemmed from a past Lyme infection, some people may call that chronic Lyme, but that should probably be called something else. I know! How about "Post-Treatment Lyme Disease Syndrome or PTLDS?

Hmmm...A little clunky. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

You know what's easier to say? That's right: "Chronic Lyme". If doctors didn't have their panties in such a tight twist about the fact that Lyme can survive some antibiotic treatments, then we would all probably be calling it simply, chronic Lyme.

Even still, I'm pretty sure when people say "chronic Lyme" they're talking about an infection that won't die.

X-member
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by X-member » Fri 27 Mar 2015 20:37

From the post above about the word "chronic":
marked by long duration or frequent recurrence : not acute
Exactly!

velvetmagnetta
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by velvetmagnetta » Fri 27 Mar 2015 20:46

;) Touché, X-member!

BUT!!!

What about those people who caught* their Lyme infections late (I will agree Late Lyme = Disseminated Lyme), and were able to completely eradicate it with one round of antibiotics?

Surely, they can't be considered to have "chronic Lyme disease" even thought they did have "Late Lyme".





*Edit: by "caught" I mean when they discovered that it was Lyme that has made them sick for so long.

X-member
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by X-member » Fri 27 Mar 2015 21:39

A person from Europe that have a late borrelia infection could get the following diagnosis by a German physican:

http://www.borreliose-gesellschaft.de/T ... elines.pdf

A quote:
chronic Lyme borreliosis
And if this person still have an active infection after "standard treatment" for chronic Lyme borreliosis (this is, as many of you already know, called late Lyme disease in IDSA:s guidelines) then the information in thread below might be interesting?

Chronic/late persistent Lyme borreliosis?

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =11&t=5220

Edit to add:

I think that IDSA call this late, persistent Lyme disease.

X-member
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Re: Chronic (Lyme) neuroborreliosis = late (Lyme) neuroborre

Post by X-member » Fri 27 Mar 2015 22:41

velvetmagnetta wrote:
What about those people who caught* their Lyme infections late (I will agree Late Lyme = Disseminated Lyme), and were able to completely eradicate it with one round of antibiotics?

Surely, they can't be considered to have "chronic Lyme disease" even thought they did have "Late Lyme".
Was this perhaps a "reaction" on what I wrote earlier. I did actually talk about borreliosis, and that word always stands for a borrelia infection.

But you are right, those people that think that chronic Lyme disease stands for a cured (eradicated) borrelia infection (no matter if the infection was early or late) are wrong.

Edit to add:

If you run into such people, give them this:


Chronic or Late Lyme Neuroborreliosis: Analysis of Evidence Compared to Chronic or Late Neurosyphilis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3551238/

A quote:
Importantly, the existence of late Lyme disease is approved by all official guidelines in the U.S., Canada and Europe. The terms “late” and “chronic” Lyme disease, as in syphilis, are synonymous and define tertiary Lyme disease. The use of “chronic” Lyme disease as a different entity is inaccurate and confusing.


I don't agree that a disseminted infection is the same thing as a late borrelia infection.

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