"Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Sun 1 Nov 2015 6:11

A quote (from an earlier post):
It's about the immunosuppression that even the crooks themselves are admitting now.
http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =10#p43211

What have ILADS/Burrascano said about this earlier?

ADVANCED TOPICS IN LYME DISEASE DIAGNOSTIC HINTS AND TREATMENT GUIDELINES FOR LYME AND OTHER TICK BORNE ILLNESSES (2008)


http://www.borrelia-tbe.se/media/burrguide200810.pdf

A quote:

The severity of the clinical illness is directly proportional to the spirochete load, the duration of infection, and the
presence of co-infections. These factors also are proportional to the intensity and duration of treatment needed
for recovery. More severe illness also results from other causes of weakened defenses, such as from severe
stress, immunosuppressant medications, and severe intercurrent illnesses. This is why steroids and other
immunosuppressive medications are absolutely contraindicated in Lyme. This also includes intraarticular
steroids.

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Sun 1 Nov 2015 7:56

More information from the US woman:

http://www.actionlyme.org/

A quote:

What is Bell’s Palsy caused by?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... stein-Barr

Some say EBV, some say Varicella, some say Simplex… Maybe it’s not spirochetes, maybe it is spirochetes, maybe it is a herpesvirus, maybe it is a combination of herpesviruses, maybe it is herpesviruses and spirochetes. But given that more than one kind of spirochete is associated with Alzheimer’s, and given that immunosuppression diseases are reactivation of COMMON VIRUSES, well, maybe that is the reason ILADS can’t cure anyone. They don’t know what they’re doing and willfully do not look at the big picture.
If she is so darn (sorry) sure that she is right and ILADS are wrong, then no lies about ILADS are needed.

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Sun 1 Nov 2015 16:53

I wrote in the first post in this thread:
...I tried to inform the woman (she is from US) that chronic Lyme borreliosis stands for late Lyme disease in Norway and Sweden and in many other countries. She replied that those physicians are "crooks" and "dumb" and then she blocked me.
Perhaps this woman think that everyone (no matter if it is an early or late borreliosis) are not cured with abx?

A quote:
So what exactly is OspA? “I did not get the vaccine so this does not concern me.”

Oh, yes, you got the vaccine. Everyone with Lyme got LYMErix. Here is what LYMErix is, and how this vaccine-was-the-disease works:
http://www.actionlyme.org/

In that case it is better that she claim that: "Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome".

duncan
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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by duncan » Sun 1 Nov 2015 17:20

Do you know how many plausible explanations there are for ME/CFS? Lots. Most sound very possible. But most are only part of the story, or are simply wrong.

This is a curious explanation. I'm not sure of the science, but she hits on several things that are right.

What I cannot get my head around - among other things - is what happens to the Bb that initially led to the sepsis? Is it still resident in the infected host? If so, how can she explain the success of the Rituximab trials? Shouldn't the Lyme have flourished?

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Sun 1 Nov 2015 17:42

Maybe this also belong in this thread?

Seronegative lyme neuroborreliosis in a patient using rituximab.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23417373
A 66-year-old woman presented with severe shooting pains throughout her back and legs, followed by progressive deafness, weight loss and headache. She had a history of marginal zone B-cell lymphoma stage IV-B, for which she was successfully treated with immunochemotherapy and rituximab maintenance therapy. A relapse was suspected, but chemotherapy was not administered, since, despite elaborate investigations, malignancy could not be proven. Because of a history of tick bites she was tested for antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi in serum and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), which were negative. However, a B burgdorferi PCR on CSF came back positive. The patient was treated for seronegative Lyme neuroborreliosis with ceftriaxone intravenously and dramatically improved. This case presentation demonstrates that, in immunocompromised patients, it is important not to solely rely on antibody testing and to use additional diagnostic tests to avoid missing or delaying the diagnosis.
It doesn't look like an activated herpesvirus to me. But it could have been an activated borreliosis.

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Sun 1 Nov 2015 17:51

Another example:

Seronegative Lyme neuroborreliosis in a patient on treatment for chronic lymphatic leukemia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17401717
We report on a patient who developed seronegative Lyme neuroborreliosis complicating chemotherapy for chronic lymphatic leukemia. After the fifth cycle of chemotherapy (FCR: fludarabine, cyclophosphamide, rituximab and prednisone) the 63-year-old patient developed night sweat, arthralgia in elbows, wrists, proximal interphalangeal joints (PIPs) and strong neuropathic pain in both legs, followed by paresthesia and hypesthesia in the feet, arms and face. Laboratory analysis revealed an elevated C-reactive protein (CRP), a slight elevation of liver enzymes and decreased IgG levels. Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) analysis showed a lymphomononuclear pleocytosis and an elevation of protein. A broad diagnostic work-up was negative including a negative Borrelia IgG and IgM ELISA. The patient did not remember recent tick bites, but after specific questioning he recollected a transient erythema on his leg developing just before the start of the last cycle of chemotherapy. As the combination of neuropathic pain and arthralgia, the transient erythema and the lymphomononuclear pleocytosis raised the suspicion of Lyme neuroborreliosis, the patient was treated for 3 weeks with ceftriaxone. On therapy all symptoms resolved and CRP normalized. Retrospective PCR analysis of a CSF sample confirmed the clinical diagnosis by detecting Borrelia garinii DNA. This case demonstrates that in immunosuppressed patients borrelial serology may be negative and that additional diagnostic approaches (including tests for direct Borrelia detection) may be needed to demonstrate borrelial infection.

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Sun 1 Nov 2015 17:56

Duncan wrote:
What I cannot get my head around - among other things - is what happens to the Bb that initially led to the sepsis? Is it still resident in the infected host? If so, how can she explain the success of the Rituximab trials?
She/they claim this:
We know that Lyme is a permanent brain infection.
http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =10#p43211

I don't think that borreliosis can cause sepsis. But I can be wrong.

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Mon 2 Nov 2015 0:54

Perhaps I misunderstood you, Duncan?

You wrote:
What I cannot get my head around - among other things - is what happens to the Bb that initially led to the sepsis? Is it still resident in the infected host? If so, how can she explain the success of the Rituximab trials?
She/they have not (what I know of) presented any study with Rituximab on cases that still are infected.

You also wrote:
Shouldn't the Lyme have flourished?
I also wonder about that.

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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by X-member » Mon 2 Nov 2015 1:10

Now I found this posted by a friend to the Norwegian "supporter".
This is worth considering. Long-term Lyme Disease could be redefined as Post-Sepsis Syndrome.
For details on the accusations and evidence -of potential fraud on the vaccine and in general on Lyme Disease - see http://www.actionlyme.com
I now I understand why the US woman gave me the answer below (from the first post in this thread):
...I tried to inform the woman (she is from US) that chronic Lyme borreliosis stands for late Lyme disease in Norway and Sweden and in many other countries. She replied that those physicians are "crooks" and "dumb" and then she blocked me.
Edit to add:

But she/they don't tell us exactly when this happens? Is it after 3 months, 6 months or perhaps 12 months or maybe even after years? Or is it perhaps after a neuroborreliosis (in most cases early/stage 2 in Sweden and Norway).

duncan
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Re: "Chronic Lyme is post-sepsis syndrome" ?

Post by duncan » Mon 2 Nov 2015 1:27

I've looked over that website, and the Rituximab post about CFS and chronic Lyme and post-sepsis, well I keep trying to wade through the entire piece, but I keep getting distracted..

I think she says that Bb still infecting them, but it isn't the problem; it's the immune suppression triggered by this post-sepsis condition that was caused by OspA. It's EBV and HHV-6 etc viruses that are coming to the fore because of this. The result is ME/CFS, i.e. post-sepsis, which also may be responsible for other conditions/diseases.

Can Lyme result in sepsis? I guess. I don't see why not.

But this is a little different. She is mixing ME/CFS theory with Lyme theory - and many of the inherent controversies in both. The thing is, she is using the Rituximab trials as the pivot point; I'm not sure that works unless she states Bb is gone in each of those patients in the trial. Or unless she knows that Bb is not exacerbated by the Rituximab.

Look. If someone had an acute case - early Lyme - what would happen if they took Rituximab? Might that not be disastrous?

I am still trying to work my way through that website. I read a little, then jump to another thing on it that catches my interest - which leads me to another post on it...It's a mammoth website. :) But ME/CFS is a labyrinth. It's tough to navigate that landscape since so much of the theory is just theory. We KNOW the immune system is out of whack - but why? Is there an infection? Is it autoimmune triggered by EBV or Lyme? Is there mito damage involved - if so, how and why did this happen?

There are myriad of other issues.

It's great to say post-sepsis. Symptoms fit. It fits a viral/bacterial etiology. So it's a hypothesis that would be fun to explore.

But the Rituximab throws me if Lyme is still present. Her whole lynch pin may be the weakness to the theory.

Then again, I think some of these trial patients had EBV and HHV-6 titers that suggest re-activation and THOSE didn't worsen after Rituximab...

I think I need a flow chart. :D

OR maybe just a better appreciation of Rituximab.

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