Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Topics with information and discussion about unconventional diagnostic and treatment methods, and unconventional views.
Nick
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by Nick » Thu 21 Feb 2008 12:02

Claudia wrote: Buhner is big on the Doctrine of Signatures (plants will resemble what they will treat, for example a plant that looks like hair will treat baldness).
yes, but that does not by definition conflict with what I said. The Buhner protocol is based on herbal products that have medically PROVEN to work for similar diseases or problems (e.g. against syphilis) and that have biochemical actions (based on scientific research) that can help with the known symptoms in lyme disease (e.g. super anti-oxidants like resveratrol, or immune-modulating substances like the alkaloids in cats claw). This is not much different from the use of antibiotics against spirochetes because these antibiotics have proven to work on bacteria (which are entirely different) or treponema (which is still very different from Bb genetically).

In fact, I'm fascinated by how in the past (long before 'science' ) people come up with the use of very specific plants for specific problems. It does NOT work by trial and error and I think it could some kind of 'unscientific' law behind it, something that works and cannot scientifically be explained (yet).
Claudia wrote: Because you are a scientist/biochemist, I was surprised when you asked/posted that. To me this supports a Creationist view of plants instead of an evolutionary view, which seems scientifically illogical to me.
first of all: I already mentioned that the drug ivermectin seems to behave a bit according to this 'signatures' idea as well. That it works is strange but FACT, there simply is no scientific explanation (yet?) why it works over such a broad range of species.

and no, it is not creationist at all. Buhner can be linked to Gaia theory which is a kind of scientific version of creationism to some, and scientifically controversial, but definitely NOT unscientific (and definitely NOT 'religious' in the common interpretation either). Gaia theory in its weaker incarnations (kind of a super-ecology of the planet) is probably accepted by a majority of biologists/ecologist. I think it offers interesting views on subjects like why diseases like Lyme are spreading (and potentially, what you could do against that). Buhner has some strong opinions about that (they are not in the Healing Lyme book); they are 'unscientific' in the sense that they are probably outside the reach of current science. But there may be some truth there, I'm open to alternative ideas especially when science has very little to offer.

Life on earth evolved together; the plants being much older than us 'know' things genetically that science does not yet understand (and maybe will never understand). They are natures biochemical factories to the extreme, producing probably millions of components including many we do not yet know. Many animals use herbs for specific problems; do you think they found out what to use by scientific experimentation?

Nick
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Location: Zeeland, Netherlands

Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by Nick » Thu 21 Feb 2008 12:27

minitails2 wrote:Nick, you know what a CV is and you know that's not one. Look what happened though, it started a conversation about Bruhner and his book. Don't you think that's what he wants?
yes, I guess he knows it is not a CV and that is exactly why he is writing it down. Also (not specifically answering to you) I think it is part of his culture; I think he wouldn't stand out in Amsterdam either and he would blend in seamlessly on the university at the time (eigthies) I went to college. Many scientists then were looking into the bounds of science, discussing Goedels theorem etc. just like Buhner. Some of them continued with science, others decided that science had too little answers for the big questions and went elsewhere. In those days the research scene quickly changed, suddenly new students were wearing suits again and were running around with expensive attache cases and mostly interested in careers, the stock exchange etc. Those type of students are now the majority in science; their appearance and preferences do not rule out good science either, but I can fully understand where Buhner is coming from.
minitails2 wrote:You're right that abx therapy is not doing all it needs to at this point, so comparing Bruhner's therapy to one you have partially discredited seems pointless.
it is as it is ... in chronic lyme AB is not very effective (otherwise the discussion about AB treatment would probably be over by now). So we need to be open to alternatives. The Buhner protocol is simply a herbal protocol, based on experience with treating similar diseases and symptoms. The book is about the protocol and the scientific research backing the action of these herbs in general. It does not prove anything about using these herbs against Lyme disease because no one has scientifically researched that, and probably no one ever will because there is no money to be made there.

Regarding effectiveness of the protocol, I think it is similar to the internet reports I hear about antibiotics (including those from ILADS doctors like Burrascano and Jemsek). Maybe that proves that none of these protocols is really effective, who knows. We do not even know exactly what we are trying to cure in Lyme ...
minitails2 wrote: Nick, in any event, there was never any attempt on my part to offend you. Please let us know how this new treatment works for you as you go along. :)
no offense, just getting the impression that some people have a very biased view.

minitails2
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by minitails2 » Fri 22 Feb 2008 9:34

Hi Nick,
I think there will always be some people who are interested in what they can "get" out of life and some that are more interested in how life works. My guess is we need all kinds of folks.

As far as your concern about people with bias, I will absolutely be the first to admit I have many "biases." Life is a series of both isolated or inter-related experiences and the knowledge learned from either a direct source or an indirect source. I would not give any of this up for anything, that would be denying my life. It is even now generally accepted that newborn babies have some amount of a priori knowledge.

Without biases, our brains could not manage the constant flood of information flowing at us, in us. That is not the same as someone who is not willing to listen to ideas that may be quite different from their own set of "biases." There is no promise that an interaction between people will result in any change of mind or opinion, but that doesn't mean there won't be some kind of knowledge gained or useful information shared.

I appreciate everything you bring to this board. I have learned a lot from your postings. :)

Greatcod
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by Greatcod » Sun 24 Feb 2008 23:04

Doesn't it seem mildly irresponsible to create a "protocol" and publish a book about it without first getting at least a few people to try it?
How many cases had the guy actually healed before "Healing Lyme" was published?
Isn't that what grown ups do-- if they are not trying to exploit the desperate, that is ?

Nick
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Location: Zeeland, Netherlands

Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by Nick » Mon 25 Feb 2008 18:24

Greatcod wrote:Doesn't it seem mildly irresponsible to create a "protocol" and publish a book about it without first getting at least a few people to try it?
the basic protocol herbs have a VERY long history of medicinal use, their side effects are relatively limited and generally well-known. These herbs have been used against similar diseases and sometimes against Lyme; only the combination is different (and even that is not very radical, some variations of this protocol were apparently floating around for a few years). Of course it is based on previous experience of herbal practitioners with Lyme patients and not written down out of the blue.

Maybe it is mildly irresponsible, but I can assure you that the experimenting by most medical docs (including many antibiotics courses prescribed by ILADS docs) is a lot less responsible, when we start talking about 'tested' combinations. E.g. the starting dose of flagyl + AB that I got seems to have killed some Lyme patients; luckily I didn't know that at the time, but my impression is that I got close anyway. Besides, when dealing with a serious condition like chronic Lyme any potentially beneficial treatment will probably have risks.

I strongly disagree with your 'exploitation' comment :evil:

Joe Ham
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by Joe Ham » Mon 25 Feb 2008 19:21

Nick wrote: flagyl + AB that I got seems to have killed some Lyme patients;
Seems a bit strange to see you of all people post such hearsay without reference to any credible sources.
Besides, when dealing with a serious condition like chronic Lyme any potentially beneficial treatment will probably have risks.
Isn't that all the more reason to require well designed studies and trials that show safety and efficacy? (as opposed to "testimonials")
I strongly disagree with your 'exploitation' comment :evil:
If promoting unproven cures to victims of a potentially deadly disease such as Lyme isn't "exploitation" then what is?
Nick, are you becoming a "true believer"?

cave76
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by cave76 » Mon 25 Feb 2008 19:41

Without denying the fact that Nick and many others may derive benefit from Buhner's 'protocol'---- I'm not enthralled with this statement that comes as an argument to 'prove' how safe herbs are when used as 'medicine':

*****the basic protocol herbs have a VERY long history of medicinal use****

The Alties on Lyment usa always drag that out. :)

Might not that be because medicine (as opposed to herbal tx) is a relatively new science? And antibiotics (speaking of treating bacterial illnesses like Lyme) are the new kid on the block?

Does no one ever think that 'OF COURSE herbs had to be used' for centuries before, simply because there was no alternative? (no pun)

As always, Nick---- wishing you the best with your trial treatment. But I couldn't resist that glaring hole in logic.

Greatcod
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by Greatcod » Mon 25 Feb 2008 21:49

Why not just call the book "Here's My Best Thinking About Herbs That Might Heal Lyme", subtitled
"But No One Has Ever Tried it Before, so I am Just Guessing."

kelmo
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by kelmo » Tue 26 Feb 2008 0:51

One thing I haven noticed with the herbal community: That even though you embrace something alternative, it's never the right brand/potency/application. It seems you can't just "take it". You have to find the Holy Grail of herbs.

Artmesinin is one. I think it might have benefit, I've used up two bottles of very expensive Dr. Zhang product. But, holy moly, trying to find the right one is tough! There are so many exceptions and qualifications for finding the right one, it almost takes the fun out of trying it.

Anyone still do the kefir thing? That was popular for a while.

Anyone still swallowing garlic cloves? I'm sure they have to be organic and touched with angel wings to work.

minitails2
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Re: Buhner's (herbs) CV and work experience

Post by minitails2 » Tue 26 Feb 2008 12:24

Hi all,
GC :)

I tend to agree with the idea that the reason that "herb" have been used, for well, I don't think anybody knows how long, maybe anthropologists, for a long time, was lack of choice and experience.

It is very true, that from our "modern" perspective, there are many herbs and plants that do, in fact, have medicinal value and some number have been turned into "modern" medicines or are generally accepted as useful. One that comes to my mind immediately, is using ginger, in whatever form, to help with nausea (no sailor would leave home without it). Some herbs are being tested quite systematically and I think that's very useful.

I guess where the herbal argument that they have been around a long time, starts to fall apart for me is that scientifically speaking, we have a lot more information and a lot more choices when treating illnesses now. Substances such as silver, gold, other metals, arsnic are not considered best practice anymore. "Best practices" change over time and to deny, that generally, treatment for various medical problems are better than they were 5000+, 1000+, 100+, 50+ years ago seems dubious.

If there is something to the idea that the herbal "treatments" are better than abx, where are people conducting and publishing research. Perhaps there is some, but I haven't seen it yet.

I also have concerns about where there herbs are grown, the lack of any agency trying to ensure the herbs are what they claim to be, the situation in which these herbs are picked, packaged, shipped, and the rising levels of pollution in the atmosphere and water that can be absorbed by the growing plants.

I have no answers as usual, just more questions. I do hope there are better treatment options targeted specifically to lyme and the co-infections and if herbal approaches are ultimately found to be helpful, great. I do think, though, that using an imperfect treatment, abx, which we know does help, is better than experimenting on ourselves while our lyme gets worse. :o

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