Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Peter Kemp
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Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by Peter Kemp » Fri 2 Mar 2012 23:56

Hi, can anyone tell me if an endospore form of borrelia has been excluded?

I ask because I attempted DNA extraction on culture containing many tiny bodies that proved highly resistant to lyzosome unless used at excessive levels (i.e. 20x recommended); and a harsh microwave treatment (10 minutes at 900w under pressure). My technique is probably very amateurish, but I bombarded those little dots and from microscopic examination, <5% broke open.

Thanks,
Peter

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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by X-member » Sat 3 Mar 2012 0:27

A very interesting question!

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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by X-member » Mon 5 Mar 2012 16:08

Maybe you can find some info in the topics below in this forum?

I link you directly to Dr MacDonalds posts in those topics:

"Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =60#p26685

"Blebs / vesicles of borrelia - ?weapons or ?Flotsam Jetsam?"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=5&t=3627

"Segmentation in the Borrelia Genome Genetic Implications"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=5&t=3686

Peter Kemp
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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by Peter Kemp » Thu 8 Mar 2012 14:43

Many thanks Carina, this is most helpful.

Prior to long abx I often observed L-forms in blood that over hours/days converted to strings of cysts just like Dr MacDonald's pictures show. A 15uM l-form spiro could convert to a chain of 20 cysts.

Later observations of actual 'corkscrew' spirochetes from culture (which I guess had a cell wall and possibly flagella) showed that these agents can grow an external cyst 'anywhere' along its length. Sometimes the cysts appear to be attached by a tiny thread up to a micron long.

The difference between the 2 might simply be dependent on whether the 'parent' has a cell wall; though that raises the question of whether the offspring has a cell wall or not depending on the 'parent'.

I just tried staining with malachite green and it appears to be taken up well by many round-bodies and wouldn't wash off, but I need to set-up a brightfield scope to confirm this.

If bb does have an endospore form they might be very tough, but perhaps wouldn't provoke symptoms if they stay that way?

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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by X-member » Thu 8 Mar 2012 15:35

I have studied (and taken pictures of) a (not spiral shaped) long form (rod) of the bacteria in my blood (this is borrelia according to a skilled Swedish microbiologist) during 3 days in my darkfield microscope.

First the (not spiral shaped) "long form" developed "bumps" in the end, and then it became a string of pearls, and finally it became separate "pearls".

I have also seen (and taken pictures of) such "pearls" with tiny filaments growing out from them. But it can also be a smaller pearl growing out from the pearl.

I have also seen (when I add a high dose abx to the blood*) that the long form (rod) (that is borrelia according to the microbiologist) rather quickly transform into a round body, that look exactly as the round body/cyst at the end of the spirochete as on the video on YouTube below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVmCa70bAxE

* Outside my body, of course!


And since I (still) find those forms in my blood after a rather long abx treatment (I am immune deficient) I think that the bacteria can both survive and multiply in the body even if the patient is on abx.

But maybe this form (s) of the bacteria are not so "agressive" as the forms (wild type bacteria?) are when they first enters the body (by a tick)? But I am (almost) sure that this form (s) of the bacteria can cause symptoms.


I am only an amateur but I'm learning more with time!

Sorry, my english is not perfect. And I don't always have the correct terms for what I want to say/describe.


Edit to add:

I have to say that I have good effect (on the symptoms) from the abx treatment, but those forms are still there in my blood!

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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by X-member » Thu 8 Mar 2012 16:39

I have typical B Afzelii symptoms, so what I find in my blood is most likely B Afzelii.

But I have studied blood from a patient that most likely had the US type of borrelia, BBss, and in that case it was really hard to find those forms in blood.

Maybe the US type of borrelia have another way to survive, and do it in other places in the body? Like in a knee, maybe?

The different types of borrelia maybe don't even give the same symptoms if the patients are not cured after treatment?

Peter Kemp
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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by Peter Kemp » Fri 9 Mar 2012 1:49

Dear Carina, excellent English and thanks for your replies.

I too have observed perfectly straight rod-types apparently convert to regular l-forms and strings of pearls. The rods are quite odd. The l-forms I see are usually not only flexible, but quite stretchy as well.

Have you attempted BSK culture? It took 5 months for corkscrew-form spiros to grow in my cultures but aside from the time I think it is fairly simple.

Best Wishes,
Peter

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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by X-member » Fri 9 Mar 2012 15:31

Peter, you wrote:
The l-forms I see are usually not only flexible, but quite stretchy as well.
Yes, I have seen (and filmed) exactly the same thing!

You also wrote:
Have you attempted BSK culture? It took 5 months for corkscrew-form spiros to grow in my cultures but aside from the time I think it is fairly simple.
I can not be without abx for (maybe) more than 3 days, because then I get some of my most serious symptoms back.

Is it possible to culture borrelia on blood when there maybe still are abx in the blood?


Edit to add later:

I wrote:
I can not be without abx for (maybe) more than 3 days
This was when I first tried to be without abx, and I have tried again and this time I got my symptoms back after 9 days, so maybe I am getting better. ;)
Last edited by X-member on Tue 24 Jul 2012 0:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by X-member » Fri 9 Mar 2012 15:39

Peter, you wrote (earlier in this topic):
I just tried staining with malachite green and it appears to be taken up well by many round-bodies and wouldn't wash off, but I need to set-up a brightfield scope to confirm this.
Interesting!

ChuckG
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Re: Borrelia round-bodies, cyst or endospore?

Post by ChuckG » Sat 10 Mar 2012 1:00

Bb is a "flat-wave" organism.

http://www.spacetoday.org/images/DeepSp ... neWave.gif

Rotate a mental image of a sine wave in your mind around various axes. Visualize what you see as you do this. I do it when I can't sleep after viewing images posted on this site.

Assume the medium containing Bb is not transparent. Rotate image.

Depth-of-field may apply.

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