Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
User avatar
inmacdonald
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri 13 Jan 2012 22:32

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by inmacdonald » Wed 8 Aug 2012 21:45

Cystic Borrelia and the American Lyme Disease Foundation (ALDF) and hv808ct commentaries
on their alleged nonreality - Opposing Evidence to the ALDF pronouncements:


Introductory remarks by MacDonald:
If you visit the ALDF Website , you might be able to read their most recent commentaries on
Cystic Borrelia. hv808ct knows exactly where these cystic nilhilistic views are stored on the ALDF site,
but a casual visitor to the ALDF site will have great difficulty in locating the quoted text.
[ hv808ct -Please post the requisite website address for your quoted material, as is standard procedure for this forum.]

Cystic forms of Treponema pallidum, Non Pallidum Treponemes, and Cystic Leptospires
are all established entities in the peer reviewed literature. ROUND BODIES
( NOT Spheroplasts-- which lack a complete cell wall) , are synonymous with Cystic forms when addressing the diverse forms ( borrelia Metamorphosis) that Borrelia spirochetes may assume. The late Dr Lynn Margulies accepted Borrelia Round Bodies (Cystic forms) in paper which she co-authored with Dr Oystein Brorson.

hv808ct quoted the ALDF resource in his remarks above , which if we are to believe the testimonials on page one of the ALDF site, are the "most definitive" information about Lyme disease available on the Internet. Reference #1 in the ALDF manifesto denying the Borrelia Cystic forms is Dr Oystein Brorson's manuscript (one of many manuscripts by Dr Oystein Brorson) illustrating the transmission electtron microscopic images of Cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi and their relationship to metronidazole.

It is paradoxical indeed, if not outright scientifically sloppy , of the ALDF to reference
a manuscript by the world's pre-eminent Borrelia Cyst researcher in their DENIALIST manifesto
about the nonexistence of Borrellia Cysts that they typed the words "mobile cyst" as part of Dr Brorson's title
when the correct transcription of Dr. Brorson's words is "Mobile and Cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi ".
No harm was done by this ALDF blunder, because Dr.Brorson has indeed demonstrated that Borrelia
Cystic forms do indeed have motility.

Where have we read about "DENIALIST" strategies elsewhere on this forum.?

If the ALDF is to remain true to its stated mission to deliver the whole truth and
everything that you needed to know but were afraid to ask about Lyme Disease,
then remove Dr. Oystein Brorson's manuscript from their list of "approved" references
about the alleged Non Existence of Cystic Borrelia.

Detailed Line by line Critique and Rebuttals from the peer reviewed literature to the post
from hv808ct and his quotations from the American Lyme Disease Forum website:
I hope that you will explore the Round Bodies [ "Cystic forms" } of Borrelia burgdorferi and
related borrelia species. Alan B. MacDonald MD. July 11,2012
"hvo808ct comment" ... "Why?... They don’t exist."

From the American Lyme Disease Foundation:
" Do Borrelia burgdorferi form cysts
that protect them from being
attacked and eliminated by antibiotics and host immune defense mechanisms?
[Response ALDF commentary:]
" The clear and simple answer is "no"....
-------------------------------------------------

link:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/10/16/0908236106
Destruction of spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi round-body propagules
(RBs) by the antibiotic Tigecycline
Øystein Brorson a, Sverre-Henning Brorson b,John Scythes c,
James MacAllister d, Andrew Wiere, 1 and Lynn Margulis d,2
Published online before print October 20, 2009,
doi: 10.1073/pnas.0908236106 PNAS October 20, 2009

Proof that Borrelia burgdorferi do indeed form Round Bodies ( Cystic forms)
Therefore the Clear and Simple Answer is "Yes"


______________________________________
" More Commentary from the ALDF:
....Although some even advocate additional treatment with metronidazole
to eliminate these "cysts" (1), there is no evidence that
they have any clinical relevance..."




________________________________________

Link:
http://kroun.i;marweb.dk/york2003/Brorson.htm

Clinical relevance of Cystic Borrelia is established
by the complete bibliography of Dr Oystein Brorson and
Dr. Sverre Henning Brorson.

____________________________________________
More commentary from the ALDF" :

" .. Two studies show that such residual structures may exist in mice
after treatment for B. burgdorferi infection; however, these forms
are not cultivable, not virulent,.."

"...and eventually are eliminated by host defense mechanisms
without causing disease (3,4,5)."
_____________________________________

Link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11478686
Gruntar,I., Malovrh,T.,Murgia. R.,Cinco.M., Conversion of Borrelia cystic forms to motile spirochetes
in vivo, APMIS , 2001, 109(5): 383-8

Proof that Borrelia Cystic forms are:
1. cultivatible
2. Virulent, capable of initiating infection with recovery of motile
spiral forms of Borrelia from the Cyst infected mice.


__________________________________________
References Section from ALDF website:

1. Brorson, O, and Brorson, SH.. An in vitro study of the susceptibility of mobile cystic forms (sic) of Borrelia burgdorferi to metronidazole.
APMIS 107: 566-576, 1999.
**************************************************************************************************************************************
ALDF website incorrect citation (another ALDF blunder) of Dr Oystein Brorson's manuscript citation
______________________________"An in vivo study of the susceptibility of mobile AND cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi to metronidazole."________________________________________________________

As it turns out, The ALDF blundered its way into expressing a truism, because Dr Oystein Brorson
has indeed proven that Cystic borrelia have mobility. He has further demonstrated with Transmission
electron micrographs that Mitotic figures are found in Cystic borrelia burgdorferi.

__________________________________________________________
More commentary from the ALDF:

"....Some investigators mistakenly use the term "cyst"
to describe those structures (e.g., L-forms or "cell-wall deficient"
variants) that are not part of the normal growth cycle of Borrelia,...
_____________________________________________________

Link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22359504

Dunham-Ems et al, Borrelia burgdorferi requires the alternative sigma
factor RpoS for dissemination within the vector during tick-to-mammal
transmission, PLoS Pathog. 2012 Feb;8(2):e1002532. Epub 2012 Feb 16.

Proof that as a part of the normal growth cycle in the Ixodid tick midgut ,
that wild type Borrelia burgodorferi spontaneously fill the lumen of the
tick midgut with Round Bodies (Cystic forms) and that in the test tube,
pure borrelia cyst body formation is stimulated by rearing spiral borrelia
burgdoreri in RPMI tissue culture medium.

___________________________________________________________
More ALDF Commentary:

"..but which are formed after exposure to antibiotics that
influence cell wall formation..."
_______________________________________________


Link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... ia%20water

Brorson O, Brorson SH.APMIS. A rapid method for generating cystic forms
of Borrelia burgdorferi, and their reversal to mobile spirochetes.
1998 Dec;106(12):1131-41.
Proof that exposure to antibiotics is not required for
Borrelia Cystic Formation. Round bodies (Cystic forms) are'
generated after mere exposure of spiral (vegetative) Borrelia
burgdorferi to Distilled H2O.


____________________________________________________-
More ALDF Commentary:
"..Such variants are of two types
and differ only in the amount of residual cell wall material
that they possess: spheroplasts, which still contain some remnants
of cell wall material; and, protoplasts which are completely devoid
of any cell wall material (2). Both types may be stable or unstable..."
________________________________________________________

Link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term ... ia%20water

Brorson O, Brorson SH.APMIS. A rapid method for generating cystic forms
of Borrelia burgdorferi, and their reversal to mobile spirochetes.
1998 Dec;106(12):1131-41.

Proof that antibiotic exposure of Borrelia burgdorferi is not necessary
to elicit the production of Spiral to Cystic Transformation. Electronmicrograph
evidence demonstrating that a Cell Wall is present in Cystic Borrelia
(Round bodies)
Proof with the electron microscope that Cystic borrelia have a cell wall
and are therefore neither Spheroplast nor Protoplast.


___________________________________________________________
Last edited by inmacdonald on Fri 10 Aug 2012 21:44, edited 1 time in total.

hv808ct
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed 30 Jul 2008 4:11

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by hv808ct » Thu 9 Aug 2012 12:31

It is paradoxical indeed, if not outright scientifically sloppy, of the ALDF to reference a manuscript by the world's pre-eminent Borrelia Cyst researcher in their DENILIST manifesto about the nonexistence of Borrellia Cysts that they typed the words "mobile cyst" as part of Dr Brorson's title when the correct transcription of Dr. Brorson's words is "Mobile and Cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi ". No harm was done by this ALDF lunder, because Dr.Brorson has indeed demonstrated that Borrelia Cystic forms do indeed have motility.
I’m beginning to wish I was colorblind to red letters…..

Information about cysts and Brorson are listed under the ALDF’s web page on “misinformation about Lyme disease.” http://www.aldf.com/Misinformation_abou ... ease.shtml

A Brorson paper is referenced there because it’s appropriate to give credit—or in this case blame—to the original purveyor of nonsense. Say “cyst” to a bacteriologist and you’re going to get a blank stare. Say “cyst” to a parasitologist and you’ll get a flicker of recognition and a question like, “Which parasite?”

All this cyst nonsense reminds me of the nanobacteria craze started by Kajander back in the 1990’s (PNAS. 1998 Jul 7;95(14):8274-9). What was postulated to be a new life form capable of some remarkable pathology turned out to be something quite mundane (PNAS. 2000 Oct 10;97(21):11511-5, http://www.pnas.org/content/97/21/11511.full).

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by Henry » Thu 9 Aug 2012 14:24

hv808ct: I agree. The idea of Borrelia forming cysts or biofilms is nonsense and only a way to rationalize the failure of some to come to grips with the fact that extended antibiotic therapy is not beneficial for the treatment of a persistent infection for which there is no evidence.

X-member
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by X-member » Thu 9 Aug 2012 17:11

Now I have had enough from ALDF, hv808ct and from Henry about this.

If you think that Brorson should change the definition cystic forms to something else, then contact Brorson!

Thank you!

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by Henry » Thu 9 Aug 2012 17:26

Bacteriologist have know since the early 1950s -- if not earlier-- that when bacteria are placed in nutritionally deficient or non-isotonic media, they lose their ability to form cells walls; such forms have been called spheroplasts or protoplasts, depending on how much residual cell wall material they possess. When these artificially created forms, which are not part of the natural life cycle of bacteria, are placed back into a complete and/or isotonic medium, they revert back to their parental cell-wall-containing form. These same events occur when bacteria are exposed to antibiotics, especially antibiotics that act by inhibiting the formation of cell walls. When bacteria lose all or a large portion of their cell walls, they are less rigid and consequently can assume a wide variety of forms that have been given different names. However, these forms are in no way cysts, nor are they any more resistant to antimicrobial agents than the parent form. All of this information can be found in any good textbook on bacteriology.

X-member
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by X-member » Thu 9 Aug 2012 17:30

Removed since I started a new topic instead.
Last edited by X-member on Fri 10 Aug 2012 6:14, edited 3 times in total.

X-member
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by X-member » Thu 9 Aug 2012 17:40

If someone is more interested in older endless discussions about this in this forum, you can find some of it here:

"Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=7&t=3573



I have also started a new topic that is ONLY about this FORM:

"Cystic forms"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=8&t=4079
Last edited by X-member on Fri 10 Aug 2012 5:04, edited 1 time in total.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by Henry » Thu 9 Aug 2012 20:21

Fine. Then you can carry on a nice long conversation with yourself on the topic. Just keep it all in one place.

X-member
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by X-member » Thu 9 Aug 2012 20:27

Henry:
Fine. Then you can carry on a nice long conversation with yourself on the topic. Just keep it all in one place.
No comments.

User avatar
inmacdonald
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri 13 Jan 2012 22:32

Re: Brorson 1998 found bb cysts in spinal fluid

Post by inmacdonald » Fri 10 Aug 2012 4:50

Let us return to the beginning of this thread:
In Vitro Conversion of Borrelia burgdorferi to Cystic Forms in Spinal Fluid,
and Transformation to Mobile Spirochetes by Incubation in BSK-H Medium
Date of Publication: May-Jun, 1998
Source: Infection, 26(3):144-50
Authors: Brorson O; Brorson S.
Institution: Dept. of Microbiology, Vestfold Sentralsykehus, Tonsberg
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to examine the structural alterations of Borrelia burgdorferi when exposed
to spinal fluid. Normal, mobile spirochetes were inoculated into spinal fluid, and the spirochetes
were converted to cysts (spheroplast L-forms)
Perspective:
Let us find a less emotional platform to continue our discussion.
Round Bodies of Borrelia burgdorferi are identical to the "C*#$^!+ F$@!*&#" {{ Words which rhyme with
"lipstick norms"]]

In order to maintain our discussion of" Round Borrelia Things" which Dr Brorson reported in 1998
--Let us use the Words "ROUND BODY BORRELIA".
Dr Lynn Margulis co-authored a paper with Dr Oystein Brorson on the subject of Round bodies
of Borrelia. Dr Justin Radolf authored a paper on the emergence of Round Bodies from spiral Borrelia
in the Ixodid tick midgut (See Dunham-Ems reference PLOS ONE 2012 above).

So we may regain some traction and continue our discussion by Substituting Borrelia Round Body
in our future discussions.

If this is agreeable,I have many other literature citations to share which will broaden the scope
of round bodies of borrelia in pathobiology. Even Dr Linda Bockenstedt has observed Borrelia round
bodies in her recent paper on borrelia induced arthritis in the mouse model.

Best,
A

Post Reply