Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are PCR+

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
X-member
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by X-member » Mon 6 Aug 2012 17:58

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 762#p27767

From the topic above (when it comes to people that is still alive :roll: ):
A positive test (DNA) is interpreted as a sign of ongoing or recent infection.
Is this what you, Henry talk about when you say:
the detection of DNA by PCR does not necessarily indicate the presence of LIVE bacterial cells

Henry
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by Henry » Mon 6 Aug 2012 19:16

Yes. PCR detects a fragment of DNA, that can be from live or dead bacteria. The procedure only detects DNA per se. As I said before, all live bacteria have DNA; however, the detection by PCR of a fragment of DNA per se does not prove the presence of live bacteria.

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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by X-member » Mon 6 Aug 2012 20:05

From my earlier post/question:
A positive test (DNA) is interpreted as a sign of ongoing or recent infection.
Henry's answer:
Yes.
Thank you, Henry.

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inmacdonald
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by inmacdonald » Mon 6 Aug 2012 22:02

The thread for this discussion is not PCR in a vacuum, and it is not about fresh frozen ICE Man PCR studies,
or PCR from Amber encrusted Borrelia.

The thread for this discussion is a Positive PCR result in ....
BODY FLUID - in this case Blood or Plasma or Serum from a living mammal (mouse)

The Thread for this discussion is further qualified by PERSISTENT PCR Positivity over
a prolonged period of time. A prolonged period of time is exemplified by months
to years following "recent expsoure" to Borrelia burgdorferi.

Dead borrelia , from the Lazarus et al paper
fail to produce a chronically positive PCR result from blood ( a dynamic body fluid acted upon by
the body's naturally occurring foreign DNA destroying enzymes, namely enodnucleases
and exonucleases.)

This gets at the arguments over the root cause of Chronic Borreliosis in the human host.
Those with putative chronic human borreliosis who continue to demonstrate a positive
PCR Borrelia result are harboring Viable, persistent, Non-dead borrelia which
release their DNA into the blood over prolonged periods of time. There is no published
peer reviewed evidence in the literature that CHRONIC PERSISTENT PCR detection of
infectome DNA FROM BLOOD is possible from DEAD pathogens. Remember, we are
considering BLOOD, which is a dynamic body fluid which is constantly being reconditioned
by all of the organ systems and enzymatic systems of the mammalian body.

If there is naivete about the protective role of human exonucleases and endonucleases
in protectioning the host from infectious (foreign) DNA
then merely switch gears to the situatiion of HIV infection.

Are we to believe in the flawed conception of Dead Infectomes producing CHRONIC pcr DETECTION OF INFECTIOUS DNA IN BLOOD OVER A PERIOD OF MONTHS TO YEARS...that an HIV patient with persistently positive PCR blood results for HIV DNA
is carrying an ENTIRELY DEAD HiV burden.??

All replies please to include references from the peer reviewed Scientific literature ( and not the Philosophical
Teleological, Epistemological writings)...Please

Best,
a

ChuckG
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by ChuckG » Tue 7 Aug 2012 0:51

I don't know whether this is relavent or not.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8570620
or full;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1996 Jan 23;93(2):705-8.
Male fetal progenitor cells persist in maternal blood for as long as 27 years postpartum.
Bianchi DW, Zickwolf GK, Weil GJ, Sylvester S, DeMaria MA.
Source
Division of Genetics, Children's Hospital, Boston, MA, USA.
In 6 of the 8 nonpregnant women, male DNA was detected in CD34+CD38+ cells, even in a woman who had her last son 27 years prior to blood sampling.

Martian
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by Martian » Tue 7 Aug 2012 1:25

ChuckG wrote:I don't know whether this is relavent or not.
Great find, ChuckG!

At least the study indicates that some dead/inactive biological "stuff" can stay in the body, in the blood circulation, for many years. This raises questions about how long (pieces of) dead Borrelia can stay in the body. If that is also years, there may be a chance of a positive PCR test years after killing all Borrelia burgdorferi in the body, and maybe (rarely?) also positive antibody tests like ELISA and Blots.

Edit 1:45 CET: and lastly, maybe pieces of dead Borrelia burgdorferi can still be pathogenetic.

ChuckG
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by ChuckG » Tue 7 Aug 2012 1:48

Martian wrote:
ChuckG wrote:I don't know whether this is relavent or not.
Great find, ChuckG!

At least the study indicates that some dead/inactive biological "stuff" can stay in the body, in the blood circulation, for many years. This raises questions about how long (pieces of) dead Borrelia can stay in the body. If that is also years, there may be a chance of a positive PCR test years after killing all Borrelia burgdorferi in the body, and maybe (rarely?) also positive antibody tests like ELISA and Blots.
Evolution has had 300+ million years of mammalian evolution to handle offspring DNA in the mother. Probably had to. Whether it says anything about Bb I can not say.

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inmacdonald
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by inmacdonald » Tue 7 Aug 2012 1:52

Dear Chuck,

Close but no cigar.

Chimeric State differs from DNA from a non-human infectome.

It has been known for decades that if pregnant women receive skin grafts from
the paternal skin, that the skin grafts will not be rejected.

In this thread we are discussing the issue of the detection of NonHuman infectome DNA Uniquely linked
to Living Vital Infectome life forms --Never documented as originating from DEAD stone cold Infectome forms.

I need to see a literature citation which demonstrates that DNA from a DEAD non-human Infectome is continually released into the mammalian blood of the "infectee"
over long periods of time (Months to Years) following initial exposure ( "recent exposure" , see Henry's post above)
..... to the living pathogen.

The Chimeric model also fails the Dead = Dead test.
We are not discussing tissue stable transplantation ( Live cells into a living host)
The Nobel Prize was awarded for the discovery of the principles whichform the foundation of tissue
transplantation. Y chromosome originating from living cells ( Transplant/ chimera) poses no
answer to the question of DEAD microbial or other Infectomes persistently and chronically
releasing DNA into the blood of a Living mammal.

We are discussing DEAD life forms
(Infectomes) and the flawed concept that DEAD INFECTOMES continually and persistently
release their DNA into the mammmalian Blood.


Nice try!
Best
A

Martian
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by Martian » Tue 7 Aug 2012 1:56

ChuckG wrote:Evolution has had 300+ million years of mammalian evolution to handle offspring DNA in the mother. Probably had to. Whether it says anything about Bb I can not say.
I'd say at least one should not assume that pieces of dead Bb are cleared within weeks after killing all Bb. I would like to see real data about that instead of the assumptions going around in Lymeland.

ChuckG
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Re: Dead Borrelia are PCR Negative while Live borrelia are P

Post by ChuckG » Tue 7 Aug 2012 2:06

inmacdonald wrote:Dear Chuck,

Close but no cigar.

[snip]

Nice try!
Best
A
I don't know whether this is relavent or not.
I wasn't "trying" for anything.

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