Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbiology

Topics with information and discussion about published studies related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Pandora
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue 20 Mar 2012 14:58

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Pandora » Sat 29 Nov 2014 8:47

We are not Mice and could never be compared to mice by immune systems, rate of growth of infections, antibodies, or anything else.

Mice never got the infectious vaccines we got for decades and they are still giving them!

Another one you might be interested in taking a WHACK at.......

http://www.parasitesandvectors.com/content/7/1/467

Analysis of the intergenic sequences provided by Feria-Arroyo et al. does not support the claim of high Borrelia burgdorferi tick infection rates in Texas and northeastern Mexico

Steven J Norris1*, Alan G Barbour2, Durland Fish3 and Maria A Diuk-Wasser4
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Like the Borrelia DNA sequences detected in this study, specific identification awaits for other Borrelia microbes isolated from R. microplus in diverse geographic locations [60-62].
However, R. microplus may be acting as a bridging vector facilitating the transmission of microbes across vertebrate hosts and possibly influencing ecological and evolutionary aspects of their natural history. The degree of similarity at the nucleotide level between a Mexican isolate of B. theileri and Borrelia spp. infecting A. americanum from the Northeast region of the USA suggests recent divergence [63].
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2180/11/6
Last edited by Pandora on Sat 29 Nov 2014 19:07, edited 2 times in total.

nnecker
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed 19 Dec 2012 22:57

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by nnecker » Sat 29 Nov 2014 13:13

LCHTom can correct me if I am wrong,but what I hear him saying is the spirochetes transcriptome has changed at some stage of an infection and its needs to grow have changed.

That's why Barthold and Bochenstedt can not grow viable spirochetes after abx treatment in standard BSK,but you should be able to grow them using the Sapi culture.Well, lets put that to the test.

velvetmagnetta
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun 23 Feb 2014 22:47

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by velvetmagnetta » Sat 29 Nov 2014 13:56

This Sapi paper is about the ability of researchers to grow Borrelia from culture - not whether mice are still infected after antibiotic treatment or how close the mouse model is to humans.

Validating this culture must happen first before Bockenstedt and Barthold can use it in their animal studies. Or maybe, if this culture works, we won't need to torture poor defenseless animals with Lyme disease! We'll just grow it from blood taken from previously treated, but symptomatic, Lyme patients.

nnecker
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed 19 Dec 2012 22:57

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by nnecker » Sat 29 Nov 2014 15:08

Much of Bochenstedt's,Wormser's,and the IDSA's Lyme opinions and guidelines are built around these animal models.Here is a chance to discredit all of that.Like you said Velvet:
This Sapi paper is about the ability of researchers to grow Borrelia from culture
We already know that standard BSK grows Bb very well from untreated mice so why do you need to have an enhanced culture other then to be able to grow them when standard BSK cannot.It would seem to me that the Sapi culture, if it works,should be able to grow Bb after abx treatment, if they are there,regardless if it's human or animal.

If you think that there is that much of a difference in the way Bb infects humans and animals,then why are all of these researchers wasting there time studying them?Do you think Dr Bochenstedt and Barthold are stupid for doing so?

And I am sure if the animal models supported the chronic Lyme position,we would be hearing a different tune from them.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Henry » Sat 29 Nov 2014 16:39

It is a well known fact that animal models of borreliosis in no way approximate the events that occur during Lyme disease in humans. For example, after infection, mice display an almost live-long bacteremia, which is why a tick can become infected after taking a blood meal on almost any part of an infected mouse. Try doing that in a human with Lyme disease, where the bacteremia is very ephemeral and borrelia are found mainly in the matrix tissue where they are bound very tenaciously by means of adhesins and integrins located on the surface of Borrelia cells.

Treadmill tests have shown no change in the physical activity of infected mice after infection; mice certainly don't ever die of borreliosis.

One also must be cautious in comparing data derived from primate studies vs data derived from human studies. For example, humans are extremely sensitive to the pyrogenic effects of bacterial endotoxins; a mere fentogram of endotoxin is sufficient to elicit a significant febrile response. However, primates can withstand the administration of GRAMS of endotoxin without any demonstrable adverse effects, including a fever. Most pharmacologist will attest to the fact that there are significant species differences in the phamacodynamic and metabolic properties of drugs.

Pandora
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue 20 Mar 2012 14:58

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Pandora » Sat 29 Nov 2014 18:36

Right. We know that from the protected lands of Gorilla's they infected with Swindle Flu Lyme AIDS in 2008....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25417711

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25248691
Screening using a Helicobacter genus-specific PCR revealed the presence of Helicobacter DNA in the majority of animals in all groups.

When your liver cancer is still liver cancer when it's in your big toe, your breast cancer is still breast cancer when it's in your bone's, you prostate cancer is still prostate cancer when it's in your brain WHY is this?

Because the infections adopt their host genes in the antigenic variation of stealth. -- Why they never could come to a vaccine for HIV other than OSPA and a bunch of bolony with 30K Thai now reporting an AIDS LIKE illness after AIDS vaccine.

However all they really needed to detect was flagella. It remains constant. So no matter what sequence variation you come up with if you have a flagellin sequence it is valid. In fact Yale Patented it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1894359
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A better understanding of epigenetics and post-septic immunosuppression can improve our diagnostic tools and may be an important potential source of novel molecular targets for new therapies.

This review will discuss important pathways of immune cell activation affected by severe sepsis, and highlight pathways of epigenetic regulation that may be involved in post-septic immunosuppression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21048427
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How many viral cystic forms can 1 spirochete make? 1, 5, 15?
Last edited by Pandora on Sun 30 Nov 2014 0:14, edited 3 times in total.

Lorima
Posts: 914
Joined: Mon 29 Oct 2007 20:47

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Lorima » Sat 29 Nov 2014 18:42

Getting back to the thread:

Henry said:
It is a well known fact that animal models of borreliosis in no way approximate the events that occur during Lyme disease in humans.
Henry, I hardly know what to say about your tendency to make (or adopt someone else's) sweeping generalizations and present them as "well known facts." Animal models do not "in no way" approximate human infection; in some ways they approximate it, and in other ways they don't. Part of being a reputable scientist is in making these distinctions, and keeping them in mind while weighing one's working hypotheses. You must know that; so why do you compose a sentence like that quoted above? It makes your team look, yet again, none too bright in the science department.
"I have to understand the world, you see."
Richard Feynman

Pandora
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue 20 Mar 2012 14:58

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Pandora » Sat 29 Nov 2014 22:30

Mol Microbiol. 2014 Nov 25. doi: 10.1111/mmi.12882. [Epub ahead of print]
Stage-Specific Global Alterations in the Transcriptomes of Lyme Disease Spirochetes During Tick Feeding and Following Mammalian Host-Adaptation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25425211
Iyer R1, Caimano MJ, Luthra A, Axline Jr D, Corona A, Iacobas DA, Radolf JD, Schwartz I.
Author information
Abstract

Borrelia burgdorferi, the agent of Lyme disease, is maintained in nature within an enzootic cycle involving a mammalian reservoir and an Ixodes sp. tick vector. The transmission, survival and pathogenic potential of B. burgdorferi

depend on the bacterium's ability to modulate its transcriptome as it transits between vector and reservoir host.

Herein, we employed an amplification-microarray approach to define the B. burgdorferi transcriptomes in fed larvae,

fed nymphs and in mammalian host-adapted organisms

cultivated in dialysis membrane chambers.

The results show clearly that spirochetes exhibit unique expression profiles during each tick stage and

during cultivation within the mammal;

-----importantly, none of these profiles resembles that exhibited by in vitro-grown organisms. --------

Profound shifts in transcript levels were observed for genes encoding known or predicted lipoproteins as well as proteins involved in nutrient uptake, carbon utilization and lipid synthesis.

Stage-specific expression patterns of chemotaxis-associated genes also were noted,

suggesting that the composition and interactivities of the chemotaxis machinery components

+++vary considerably in the feeding tick and mammal.+++

The results as a whole make clear that environmental sensing by B. burgdorferi directly or indirectly drives an extensive and tightly integrated modulation of cell envelope constituents, chemotaxis/motility machinery, intermediary metabolism and cellular physiology.

These findings provide the necessary transcriptional framework for delineating B. burgdorferi regulatory pathways throughout the enzootic cycle as well as defining the contribution(s)

of individual genes to spirochete survival in nature and virulence in humans.
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Maybe they would have better luck just reverting to Epstein Borreliosis diagnosis in the over 95% of the pops they know are infected....

velvetmagnetta
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun 23 Feb 2014 22:47

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by velvetmagnetta » Sun 30 Nov 2014 1:00

nnecker said:
If you think that there is that much of a difference in the way Bb infects humans and animals,then why are all of these researchers wasting there time studying them?Do you think Dr Bochenstedt and Barthold are stupid for doing so?
I'm not sure if you were talking to me, but I did not mean to imply Dr. Bockenstedt was wasting her time!

What she found - the immunogenic remnants of Bb in cartilage - was nothing short of revolutionary. Bockenstedt, herself, warns that you cannot be too quick to directly relate what happens in mice to what happens in humans. But I personally believe the Lyme debris she found in the mice is also a major problem in humans. It may even be what has been possibly mistakenly thought of as the "Herxheimer Effect". Now, if only she would work on how to remove that left-over immune-reactive Lyme debris...?

It just gets to me sometimes that in order to find out what's wrong with me and then fix it, a disturbing number of animals will have to suffer in the process.

Since the culture involves taking blood out of a patient and doesn't involve putting anything inside the patient (like a drug trial), then there would be no need to test it on the little mice. Blood can be tested from humans with the following conditions:

1. Suspected early Lyme but tested negative with conventional blots
2. Tested positive for Lyme and took a short course of antibiotics but are still symptomatic
3. Tested positive for Lyme and took a long course of antibiotics but are still symptomatic
4. Suspected Late-Disseminated Lyme but tested negative on conventional blots
5. Late-Lyme,Tested positive, then treated with a short-course of antibiotics but are still symptomatic
6. Late-Lyme, Tested positive, then treated with a long course of antibiotics but are still symptomatic


nnecker said:
It would seem to me that the Sapi culture, if it works,should be able to grow Bb after abx treatment, if they are there,regardless if it's human or animal.
I think that was my point! We can skip the experimenting on animals stage completely!


nnecker said:
We already know that standard BSK grows Bb very well from untreated mice so why do you need to have an enhanced culture other then to be able to grow them when standard BSK cannot.
Are you seriously asking me why we need an improved culture test?

Do you think Dr. Sapi is wasting her time trying to improve the Bb culturing method?

Please see this thread for some reasons why we need a better culture:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... &start=100

velvetmagnetta
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun 23 Feb 2014 22:47

Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by velvetmagnetta » Sun 30 Nov 2014 1:32

Pandora wrote:
Another one you might be interested in taking a WHACK at.......

http://www.parasitesandvectors.com/content/7/1/467

Analysis of the intergenic sequences provided by Feria-Arroyo et al. does not support the claim of high Borrelia burgdorferi tick infection rates in Texas and northeastern Mexico

Steven J Norris1*, Alan G Barbour2, Durland Fish3 and Maria A Diuk-Wasser4
And here is the paper this "Opinion Piece" is referring to:
Implications of climate change on the distribution of the tick vector Ixodes scapularis and risk for Lyme disease in the Texas-Mexico transboundary region

Teresa P Feria-Arroyo1†, Ivan Castro-Arellano2†, Guadalupe Gordillo-Perez3†, Ana L Cavazos1, Margarita Vargas-Sandoval4, Abha Grover5, Javier Torres3, Raul F Medina6, Adalberto A Pérez de León7 and Maria D Esteve-Gassent5*

http://www.parasitesandvectors.com/content/7/1/199
Question...

How prone is PCR to contamination?

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