Valid lab test for Lyme?

Medical topics with questions, information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
ptbrisa
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Joined: Thu 12 Jun 2008 4:06

Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by ptbrisa » Wed 9 Jul 2008 20:04

Does anyone know Anything about the Q-RIBb test for Lyme. I was
diagnosed 4 years ago by the Bowen lab(+ for Lyme and Babesiosis) which
is subsequently no longer in existence and has changed its name to
Central Florida Research Incorporated. Is this a valid test? I called
the lab today and spoke to a man named Tom. I asked him if insurance
companies recognized their testing methods as valid and he said yes. I
asked him if my tests done by Bowen labs were accurate and valid and he
said they were. He said they are using a more advanced method then was
done by Bowen Lab and that due to the advanced technology the testing
procedures had changed but were similar and that Bowens methods were
valid methods.

I am sure I have Lyme, clinically no doubt, but if my testing is not
recognized by insurance and if my Lyme progresses to the point where I
cannot work...I am concerned I would have a difficult time getting
disability. Probably would have a difficult time anyway.

Is PCR testing the gold standard?

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LymeEnigma
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Location: The Nevada Desert, USA
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Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by LymeEnigma » Wed 9 Jul 2008 22:34

I don't know any of the details, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Q-riBb test was discontinued because it was NOT a valid test. I do know that its results were not reportable under just about every state, and one has to question why the company changed its name....

PCR is the only way you're going to "prove" without a shadow of a doubt that you have Lyme, but unfortunately the only reportable test right now is the Western blot ... and even then, it depends on the lab. Even worse, blood tests are by no means reliable, so even if you do get the right tests performed, they might not accurately reflect your current condition.

It sucks, but most of us really are stuck between a rock and a hard place where testing is concerned ... and there really is no way of determining, definitely, just how accurate or reputable any of the different labs really are. Word of mouth will only get you so far, unfortunately; I don't think any of us really can tell you which labs are and are not worth sending your money and your blood to. No matter who you go through, it's going to be a craps shoot.

blackpowder
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed 21 Nov 2007 16:53

Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by blackpowder » Thu 10 Jul 2008 8:41

Here I go sounding like a total newbie but what the heck
is a PCR. I have taken liberties and named it myself but
I'm certain it's not one of them. ;)

Cobwebby
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Joined: Mon 29 Oct 2007 0:55

Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by Cobwebby » Thu 10 Jul 2008 12:06

Shouldn't you ask your insurance company this question?
The greater part of our happiness or misery
depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
Martha Washington

blackpowder
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Joined: Wed 21 Nov 2007 16:53

Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by blackpowder » Thu 10 Jul 2008 15:47

edited because I am a moron
Last edited by blackpowder on Fri 11 Jul 2008 18:08, edited 1 time in total.

rlstanley
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Joined: Mon 3 Dec 2007 2:53

Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by rlstanley » Thu 10 Jul 2008 17:54

For some history on Bowen labs, search on sci.med.diseases.lyme

Here I just plugged in "Bowen" http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med. ... me&q=bowen

And here's an oldie but a goodie where Mattman explains all. The thing about catching Lyme from doorknobs is priceless:

See http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:Mbb ... cd=3&gl=us and scroll down to highlighted words:
Why Are All Q-RIBb Test Results Positive?

Commentary from the Editors & Lida Mattman, Ph.D.

Editors: All samples tested positive for Lyme by the fluorescent antibody test (Q-RIBb). This finding initially prompted our concern over the integrity of the assay. However, if the assay is not producing false positives, as shown by the development data and analysis by two other independent laboratories, then the spirochete antigen is present throughout the population of sick individuals, as indicated by Dr. Whitaker’s findings. We believe the Q-RIBb (Quantitative-Rapid Identification of Borrelia burgdorferi) can be valuable for identifying the magnitude of infection and for tracking the progress of treatment.

Why should you believe this data? Dr. Whitaker has a strong background in developing fluorescent assays. The assay was evaluated by two independent laboratories and determined to be accurate.

Equally important, we spoke with Dr. Lida Mattman, Ph.D., previous laboratory director of Nelson Medical Research Institute in Warren, Michigan. Dr. Mattman has clarified the situation. Mattman, a Yale graduate and previous Director of Research of the laboratories of the UN, was culturing the organism in live culture, considered to be the GOLD STANDARD of Lyme identification. “During the last six months we were in operation, out of 400 patients, there were only two negative findings. One of the negative cases was a man from Germany and the other was a dog” - Dr. Mattman.

Dr. Mattman believes that spirochetes can become endemic in the population.

SNIP

Dr. Mattman believes that touching can spread Lyme disease. The Lyme spirochete can actually occur in tears, and therefore can be transmitted to hands, which contaminates doorknobs, pens, people shaking hands, etc. This appears to be consistent with the observation that whole families often culture positive for Lyme and present with symptoms.

Because of the contagious aspect, just about everyone who is sick, and many who are well, have a high probability of having Lyme spirochetes. Differences in susceptibility to illness may lie in areas of immunity, detoxification capabilities, stress, or many other factors that affect the expression of illness. For those who are sick and not responding to therapy, it would be wise to look for the presence and magnitude of Lyme and coinfections.
Scroll down here to highlighted words on pages 14 & 24 to see the status of Mattman lab in Warren, Michigan http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:IIZ ... cd=2&gl=us

Rita

hiker53
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Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by hiker53 » Fri 11 Jul 2008 4:09

I had some short term disability and the then Bowen Lab test and a positive IGg from Igenex helped. However, I work for the state and social security does not play into my disability, so I just needed 2 doctors to fill out forms and the diagnosis. They never asked for tests or anything. That might change if if it were long term disability, but I don't know. I only had to have it for a few months. Hiker53

ptbrisa
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Joined: Thu 12 Jun 2008 4:06

Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by ptbrisa » Fri 11 Jul 2008 7:12

The Bown Lab does not seem to be respected very well among the medical community. Good idea about testing for Babesia first. Thanks.

ptbrisa
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Joined: Thu 12 Jun 2008 4:06

Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by ptbrisa » Fri 11 Jul 2008 7:23

Doorknobs? I can't hardly believe that one!

Martian
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Location: Friesland, the Netherlands

Re: Valid lab test for Lyme?

Post by Martian » Fri 11 Jul 2008 16:29

ptbrisa wrote:The Bown Lab does not seem to be respected very well among the medical community.
It is well respected by those who think all is Lyme and those who are pleased with every positive test result, without taking the reliability into account.

For many people more positive results equals more reliable. :roll:

Bowen labs and the Q-RiBb test are dubious, and the people involved with Bowen are also dubious. This has been discussed in the past several times. It seems the Bowen hype is over nowadays.
rlstanley wrote:And here's an oldie but a goodie where Mattman explains all. The thing about catching Lyme from doorknobs is priceless
Yes, this article comes to my mind every time there is mention of Bowen and the Q-RiBb test.

BTW: "Bowen Labs" has been replaced by "Central Florida Research" (since early 2007 I think). Or as they put it themselves: The Central Florida Research laboratory is replacing the laboratory operations of the Bowen Research and Training Institute, Inc.

Note that http://www.bowen.org forwards to http://centralfloridaresearch.com/lab2/

Here is the only time I could find mention of Bowen on that site:
Quoting source: http://centralfloridaresearch.com/lab2/ ... &Itemid=58
Lyme Antigen Test

* Lyme Antigen Test by Flow Cytometry *
The Central Florida Research laboratory is located in Lake Alfred, Florida and is replacing the laboratory operations of the Bowen Research and Training Institute, Inc. Central Florida Research, Inc. is a state licensed CLIA approved laboratory and is dedicated to the research of Lyme disease and other (CSID) Chronic, Systemic, Infectious Diseases. The Bowen Technique is still a viable part of Bowen Research & Training Institute, Inc.The Central Florida Research laboratory is located in Lake Alfred, Florida and is replacing the laboratory operations of the Bowen Research and Training Institute, Inc. Central Florida Research, Inc. is a state licensed CLIA approved laboratory and is dedicated to the research of Lyme disease and other (CSID) Chronic, Systemic, Infectious Diseases. The Bowen Technique is still a viable part of Bowen Research & Training Institute, Inc.
I could not find mention of the Q-RiBb test on that site, but it seems to me that this Lyme Antigen Test discussed on that page could be the same as the Q-RiBb test.

On the Bowen site I found:
Quoting source: http://bowen.org/NewSite/LymeDisease.html
Central Florida Research Inc is the testing service for these tests. Please contact them through their website to get additional information. http://www.centralfloridaresearch.com

They are currently licensed to perform Western Blot, IGG, IGM, and Wampole Preview Test.

They have been researching identification of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) with enumeration and quantification by flow cytometry.

Please go to there website for more information. http://www.centralfloridaresearch.com

Please contact Central Florida Research, Inc. for a collection kit (includes collection tubes, physician & patient information sheets, and shipping instructions.)

Attention Pet Lovers!!
Your dog or cat may be tested as well. Please have your veterinarian contact Central Florida Research, Inc. for information and pricing.
Isn't this "replacement" a bit vague, not to say dubious? Isn't this simply Bowen Labs with a new name?

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