Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borreliosis

Medical topics with questions, information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
X-member
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by X-member » Mon 17 Sep 2012 17:25

Spanky:
What Bagge said.
You have told us that we "maybe" are not so "interested in" what Bagge have said (in another topic), but if he has said something about what this topic is about, then post it here, Spanky. :D

Edit to add:

Since this topic is not about what Bagge has said (what I know of) maybe I should start a topic about what Bagge has said in this forum?

Perhaps someone is interested? :roll:

Cobwebby
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by Cobwebby » Mon 17 Sep 2012 18:26

Spanky wrote:No answer?

Why not?

Notice that you said that someone could get "Lyme" almost instantaneously:
Which would seem to make it possible to
contract Lyme almost instantly from a tick bite in some cases.
That means: Lyme disease.

Now, assuming all else to be true for the sake of argument...

...why do you think you are sufficiently qualified to render an opinion on whether disease (as opposed to a few bactria) could be transmitted "almost instantaneously"?

Maybe you should stick to telling stale jokes...
I can do both: post citation AND tell another joke!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6516454

and now on to Lyme Cafe ...
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depends on our dispositions,
and not on our circumstances.
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Spanky
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by Spanky » Mon 17 Sep 2012 18:33

"Cobwebby":
I can do both: post citation AND tell another joke!

Kind of hard to be able to tell the difference between your 'citations' and your jokes...

But spreading misinformation is not funny.

ChuckG
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by ChuckG » Tue 18 Sep 2012 2:16

Cobwebby wrote:
Cobwebby wrote:
The tighter the tick’s hypostome (stinger) is glued into the host’s skin, the longer the tick has already been drawing blood. Since it takes at least a few hours to become infected (it is estimated that it can take between eight to twelve hours from the time of the initial bite), it is important to estimate how long the tick may have been latched onto its host. If, for example, the tick is discovered in the morning, then the 8 hour limit is surely over and one should seek treatment as if an infection has occurred.
I thought this was interesting since it is considerably less than the 36 hours often cited in the US.
I remember Dr. Willy Burgdorfer’s position made quite clear many years ago in several national and international conferences on tick born diseases (borreliosis) – specifically in his position as co-chair and presentor at several LDF Scientific Conferences. At these conferences, he showed many slides of infected severely ticks in which the entire salivatory apparatus (the entire gut and chelicerate) was infested with the organisms named after him (and Dr. Borel, who, I believe was a French researcher in the last century?).
Dr. Burgdorfer stated it was his opinion based on his work, that infection could and would occur very quickly after attachment (minutes, hours).


Thomas Mather has a paper "Isolation of Borrelia burgdorferi from saliva of the tick vector, Ixodes scapularis"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8195390

Eight out of 14 ticks had cultivable spirochetes (Bb) from their saliva.

Which would seem to make it possible to contract Lyme almost instantly from a tick bite in some cases.
So I downloaded the PDF and went directly to the MATERIALS AND METHODS section:
MATERIALS AND METHODS
Adult I. scapularis ticks were collected by flagging at three locations during the fall of 1992. Sampling sites were located in Rhode Island (Webster, Charlestown), Massachusetts (Ipswich), and Pennsylvania (Bryn Athyn). High rates of spirochete prevalence have previously been reported for each sampling location (1, 16, 18). All ticks were stored in vials and were maintained at 98% humidity and 5°C for up to 5 months before inducing salivation.
To prepare the ticks to salivate, they were allowed to engorge partially by feeding on the blood of one of two New Zealand White rabbits. In the first trial, 40 mating pairs of ticks from Ipswich were placed on one ear and 40 mating pairs from Webster (Charlestown) were placed on the other ear. In the second trial, 40 mating pairs from Pennsylvania were allowed to feed on a single ear. Ticks were contained on the rabbit's ear by using cloth bags affixed with tape. Mostly replete I. dammini ticks were harvested from the first rabbit on the fifth, sixth, and seventh days post attachment. All ticks were harvested from the second rabbit on the sixth day post attachment.
See also TABLE 1 column 2.

Lorima
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by Lorima » Tue 18 Sep 2012 21:47

Cobwebby, thanks for bringing this up.
Chuck, yes - good catch. So we can dismiss the Mathers paper from evidence. That leaves Willie Burgdorfer.

Here's a reference to Burgdorfer's findings, in a paper from the CDC. Apparently Burgdorfer says that about 5% of the ticks had generalized infections that included spirochetes in the salivary glands. He's known to be opposed to the IDSA disease model, so it wouldn't surprise me if he follows that observation to its most conservative (in terms of protecting patients) implication, which is that in, say, 3% of tick bites, 24 hours of attachment is not required for the transmission of the organisms, and hence the disease. It could happen as soon as the tick begins feeding. I'll have to gather papers to see exactly what he said.

It implies yet another way patients get reassured they can't have Lyme disease. Say, they get bit, they remove the tick promptly and take it to their doctor for testing, he throws it out and tells them they're safe because they removed it fast, then a couple of months later they get "non-specific, subjective" symptoms of Lyme (joint pain but no measurable swelling, headaches, and malaise, say) but their doctor dismisses the possibility and either refuses to test them, or tests them with the faulty two-tier test, which comes back negative, and voila... Another CFS/ME or fibromyalgia, etc. patient is created.

http://www.healthunit.org/hazards/docum ... _24hrs.pdf

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ChuckG
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by ChuckG » Tue 18 Sep 2012 23:52

Piesman and Schneider

...Spirochetes in tick salivary glands increased > 17-fold during feeding, from 1.2 per salivary gland pair before feeding to 20.8 at 72 h postattachment.

Bagge
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by Bagge » Wed 19 Sep 2012 0:23

.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u80q56612j126286/
Experimental and Applied Acarology
Volume 28, Numbers 1-4 (2002), 141-145, DOI: 10.1023/A:1025351727785
Dynamic Changes in Lyme Disease Spirochetes During Transmission by Nymphal Ticks

Joseph Piesman and Bradley S. Schneider

Abstract
Ticks are not crawling needles, merely delivering infectious agents to vertebrate hosts. A sophisticated interplay takes place between ticks, pathogens, and vertebrate hosts. The relationship between Ixodes ticks and the Lyme disease spirochetes they transmit involves subtle changes in spirochete populations that maximize their chances of being transmitted. An understanding of this complex interplay will, hopefully, allow the development of new tools to block transmission of tick-borne agents.

This revised version was published online in July 2006 with corrections to the Cover Date.


http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1603/0 ... 2.0.CO%3B2
Journal of Medical Entomology 45(4):732-736. 2008
doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1603/0022-2585(2008)45[732:TDOBBS]2.0.CO;2

Transmission Dynamics of Borrelia burgdorferi s.s. During the Key Third Day of Feeding by Nymphal Ixodes scapularis (Acari: Ixodidae)


Abstract
Nymphal Ixodes scapularis Say are the principal vectors of Lyme disease spirochetes (Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto) in the eastern United States. Physicians frequently face the decision of whether or not to administer prophylactic antibiotics to human tick bite victims in Lyme disease endemic regions, based on the overall probability that such bites will result in infection with B. burgdorferi s.s. We evaluated the transmission dynamics of B. burgdorferi s.s. during the key third day of nymphal I. scapularis feeding, when the risk of transmission rapidly increases. The cumulative probability that 50% of infected ticks transmitted B. burgdorferi s.s. occurred at 68 h of tick attachment and our overall estimate that a human tick bite would result in transmission of B. burgdorferi s.s. was 2.4%.

Received: March 5, 2008; Accepted: May 6, 2008
.

Lorima
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by Lorima » Wed 19 Sep 2012 2:25

Chuck,

I agree, the scenario I suggested is likely to be a rare occurence. Even if it happens, less than 5% of the ticks are said to have the severe infection that leads to Bb in the saliva before feeding. It seems clear that the usual way the infection works is for spirochetes to move to the salivary gland during feeding, and then to infect the mammalian host, after OspA has been downregulated and OspC upregulated. (Although I should qualify that species other than Bb stricto should be tested, before generalizing to them; maybe they have been).

I guess I'm in a period of collecting all the ways people can get Lyme and have it go undiagnosed, due to the over-generalization and diagnostic requirement for "usual" observations, like the target-shaped rash, the perceived rarity of neurologic/encephalopathic Lyme, the idea that the two-tier test is 100% sensitive in late disease, etc. It's all part of the "mild and self-limiting, hard to catch, easy to diagnose, easy to cure" model. I think that perception, among both doctors and the public, is leading to people being cavalier about prevention, and slow to get diagnosed and treated.

I agree it's more important to focus on the major ways people go undiagnosed - like the above-mentioned misinformation about the rash, the symptoms, and the test. To help keep things as simple as possible, I won't focus on occurences that may actually be rare, in the future.

Thanks for digging up the information and making intelligent use of it; looking forward to more!
Best wishes,
Lorima
"I have to understand the world, you see."
Richard Feynman

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Spanky
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by Spanky » Wed 19 Sep 2012 15:23

Lorima:
Cobwebby, thanks for bringing this up.


:roll:

Yeah...and then have the nerve to post about how we go "round and round here".

Sure we do... so long as some can dredge up old nonsense and repost it...
cave76

Sun 21 Oct 2007 18:02

*****There are a lot of myths on how long a tick can be attached to a host before he infects this host****

My favorite topic.

That would suggest that my personal theory ( 'instantaneous infection' ) CAN happen, perhaps not as often as a longer attachment would effect.
(Hopefully, no one is "piggybacking" banned posters onto the board. That wouldn't be "good faith", would it)?

ChuckG
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Re: Chronic persistent Lyme Disease (LD) or chronic Borrelio

Post by ChuckG » Thu 20 Sep 2012 1:09

Lorima wrote:Chuck,

I agree, the scenario I suggested is likely to be a rare occurence. Even if it happens, less than 5% of the ticks are said to have the severe infection that leads to Bb in the saliva before feeding. It seems clear that the usual way the infection works is for spirochetes to move to the salivary gland during feeding, and then to infect the mammalian host, after OspA has been downregulated and OspC upregulated. (Although I should qualify that species other than Bb stricto should be tested, before generalizing to them; maybe they have been).

...

Thanks for digging up the information and making intelligent use of it; looking forward to more!
Best wishes,
Lorima
OspC is essential for infectivity. OspC is up-regulated by the blood meal. No reason to believe OspC in spirochetes in the salivary glands is up-regulated by blood meal in tick gut. (No quantum entanglement between gut spirochetes and salivary gland spirochetes. :D )

Perhaps when the salivary spirochete comes into contact with the environmental conditions in the skin that mimic the conditions in the tick gut OspC is up-regulated. Who knows?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3320556/
BMC Microbiol. 2012; 12: 44.
Published online 2012 March 23. doi: 10.1186/1471-2180-12-44
PMCID: PMC3320556
Activation of the RpoN-RpoS regulatory pathway during the enzootic life cycle of Borrelia burgdorferi

Results

Herein, we examined the expression of rpoS and key lipoprotein genes regulated by RpoS, including ospC, ospA, and dbpA, throughout the entire tick-mammal infectious cycle of B. burgdorferi. Our data revealed that transcription of rpoS, ospC, and dbpA is highly induced in nymphal ticks when taking a blood meal. The RpoN-RpoS pathway remains active during the mammalian infection phase, as indicated by the sustained transcription of rpoS and dbpA in B. burgdorferi within mouse tissues following borrelial dissemination. However, dbpA transcription levels in fed larvae and intermolt larvae suggested that an additional layer of control likely is involved in the expression of the dbpBA operon. Our results also provide further evidence for the downregulation of ospA expression during mammalian infection, and the repression of ospC at later phases of mammalian infection by B. burgdorferi.

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