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Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 1:11
by Camp Other
Bagge wrote:
tosho wrote:
duncan wrote:Bagge to hv808ct: "Certainly, it seems as if all of your facts check out."

A) Wonderful sentence.
B) What facts? You stipulate "all". I see a lot of opinion; could you please point out "all" those facts?
C) You checked those supposed facts out....how?
Duncan, shhhh, quiet, Bagge thinks that others don't know what was the intention of his post ;)
Why all the fuss? Why all the fighting? Why all the cases of "chronic Lyme disease"?

Top leaders in the so-called "LLMD" community have asserted that ALS is really Lyme disease in disguise. They assert that they can cure 90% of any patient's symptoms in less than 10 minutes flat. Go to them. Be cured. It's simple. Really. One visit should take care of it and 10 minutes is well within the coverage for any HMO. Go and be done with it.
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I don't know why there are all these cases of chronic Lyme disease. Ask Paul Lantos. He says it's a mystery. Though he also says additional antibiotic treatment doesn't seem to help. But hey, at least he says it's a mystery why someone like me has persisting symptoms rather than immediately begin diagnosing me long distance and telling me it's all in my head.

It seems like no matter what I do, I can't win. It seems that in a number of cases that those who are critical of the LLMDs and Lyme patients spend their energy on criticism rather than solutions; those who support LLMDs and Lyme patients spend more time on criticizing those who are critical rather than on solutions.

Bagge, your sarcasm is duly noted. But just because Dr. Martz had a diagnosis of atypical ALS and turned out to have Lyme disease and antibiotic treatment improved his condition doesn't mean that ALL ALS = Lyme disease. I think you underestimate and wrongly judge doctors and patients when you make such off the cuff remarks. True, there are people out there who say x, y, and z are not x, y, and z and are instead Lyme disease - but that isn't everyone, and sometimes it IS true that x, y, or z has been misdiagnosed and the patient does have Lyme disease instead. These things happen.

Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 1:29
by Bagge
Camp Other wrote: just because Dr. Martz had a diagnosis of atypical ALS and turned out to have Lyme disease and antibiotic treatment improved his condition doesn't mean that ALL ALS = Lyme disease. I think you underestimate and wrongly judge doctors and patients when you make such off the cuff remarks.
You, again, are being presumptuous in concluding that my opinions are based on Dr. Martz. I've never met him nor corresponded with him in any manner. None whatsoever.
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Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 1:44
by Camp Other
Bagge wrote:
Camp Other wrote: just because Dr. Martz had a diagnosis of atypical ALS and turned out to have Lyme disease and antibiotic treatment improved his condition doesn't mean that ALL ALS = Lyme disease. I think you underestimate and wrongly judge doctors and patients when you make such off the cuff remarks.
You, again, are being presumptuous in concluding that my opinions are based on Dr. Martz. I've never met him nor corresponded with him in any manner. None whatsoever.
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I am surprised you are not basing your opinion on Dr. Martz. Because given your comment about ALS and Lyme disease, yes, I would have presumed and assumed that you would have looked at the situation where some Lyme patients ran with the idea that because Dr. Martz's ALS turned out to be undiagnosed Lyme disease that it meant ALS = Lyme disease in every case. His case is very well known in the Lyme community.

My point was that not everyone thinks that a given condition is Lyme disease, and there are also exceptions where a condition is misdiagnosed and later turns out to be Lyme disease.

Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 3:06
by tosho
Bagge wrote:
tosho wrote:
duncan wrote:Bagge to hv808ct: "Certainly, it seems as if all of your facts check out."

A) Wonderful sentence.
B) What facts? You stipulate "all". I see a lot of opinion; could you please point out "all" those facts?
C) You checked those supposed facts out....how?
Duncan, shhhh, quiet, Bagge thinks that others don't know what was the intention of his post ;)
Why all the fuss? Why all the fighting? Why all the cases of "chronic Lyme disease"?

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Bagge, you guys fail to realise that with this kind of language (which you approved)...
hv808ct:

Second, I never had occasion to read “Cure Unknown” because generally I am not interested in the views of pundits with axes to grind. Thanks to Google, however, I did stumble across a search engine for the book and typed in MacDonald’s name. (http://books.google.com/books?id=YVqgBT ... =macdonald)

Now the author clearly intended for the book to present a view of heroic, lone physicians and suffering patients fighting against the arrogant, entrenched mass of modern medicine. And those who bought the book probably read it that way. Yet, it’s very easy to read it from an entirely different perspective: that of lone amateurs trying to attract the attention of famous researchers and institutions with wild theories and claims, and being rebuffed for lack of compelling evidence. The histories of medicine and science are crowded with such wild-eyed individuals, who, in the era of the Internet, have found a home and an audience, albeit outside the preferred domains of medicine and science.
...you will never gain any acceptance from people. "Look dumb people, I am the boss here" kind of approach of a frustrated person, where the personal tragedies that many go through are completely missed.

Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 3:23
by Bagge
tosho wrote: ...you will never gain any acceptance from people. "Look dumb people, I am the boss here" kind of approach of a frustrated person, where the personal tragedies that many go through are completely missed.
Tosho, I've never called you dumb. I've not called anyone dumb, nor have I asserted or implied that I am the boss here. As far as the '10 minutes to heal' comment, the messenger of a statement of fact should not considered as being the offensive one. I find protection of this sort of behaviour* as much more offensive. (Innocent until proven guilty, of course). What is equally offensive is to watch patients be drawn into these 'situations' only to have no one intervene. Pateint-Activists seem to pride themselves in how well they can protect their doctors, that should anger you, maybe when it happens to you.
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Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 3:24
by Lorima
au·thor·i·tar·i·an personality (-thôr-târ-n)
n.
A personality pattern reflecting a desire for security, order, power, and status, with a desire for structured lines of authority, a conventional set of values or outlook, a demand for unquestioning obedience, and a tendency to be hostile toward or use as scapegoats individuals of minority or nontraditional groups.

The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2007, 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 3:32
by Camp Other
tosho wrote: ...you will never gain any acceptance from people. "Look dumb people, I am the boss here" kind of approach of a frustrated person, where the personal tragedies that many go through are completely missed.
Tosho, I don't think the aim of their discussion is to be accepted by anyone. The goal is to make their point, and quite possibly, make it not only to you and me but to the audience of passerby who read this forum and its posts.

Keep in mind different people post here for different reasons and due to different motivations. And part of what makes it interesting and aggravating at the same time is that you can never be entirely sure who they are or why they're here. Remember: No one on the internet knows you're a dog - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Int ... u're_a_dog

Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 4:22
by Lorima
I think maybe Tosho meant, that no one would take their points seriously, when they are expressed in such a way. I concur, although I'd qualify it to say, no one intelligent.

I came across an interesting expression of this idea recently. I happened on this site while looking for something else, and while I was there, I clicked on a few blog entries that sounded interesting. Here's one about the political use of assertion, which is a big problem in LD borreliosis academic medicine.
http://changingminds.org/blog/1204blog/120413blog.htm 

Friday 13-April-12
Assertion or Persuasion in Politics
I was reading something recently about the Republican elections for their 2012 presidential candidate that made me think. Normally, it all passes over my head as I live in Britain and politics across the pond are of limited interest, particularly the pre-election shenanigans. But this piqued my interest.

The point of interest was made about Mitt Romney, how he was framing himself as a 'severe conservative' and making assertions about what should be done. Like many others, he is seeking to persuade his voters by boldly asserting things as being true rather than gaining votes through more rational and persuasive methods.

]It's a serious question for politicians. Do you appeal to the more thoughtful, questioning voters by putting forward a reasoned case, or do you take an authoritative stance, playing the all-knowing parent-leader who knows what is best? In short, do you push or do you pull? From what I have seen, Republicans generally prefer to assertively push, while Democrats prefer to persuasively pull.

It's not too dissimilar over here in the UK. The Conservative right, based in an aristocratic past, just seem to want to tell the country what is best for them. The Labour right, however, are not just about pulling. While not as leftist as some European parties yet not as central as the US Democrats, Labour do have a pushy tendency. Take for example Tony Blair's decision to join the USA in Iraq even after a million people demonstrated against such a decision. The historical aggressive style of supporting trade unions also leads to more push.

In the UK, the Liberal Democrats seem to be more reasoned and reasoning and are more popular amongst academics and thinkers, although their reputation for consideration is being dented in their current bumpy coalition with the Conservatives.

As in any persuasive situation, the bottom line is what works, wins. If you have a population that just wants a parent figure who seems to know what they are doing, then push methods are best. If you have a thinking population or people who do not like being dictated to, then some of pull is better. In practice you usually need a fine balance of both. Too much push and you seem dictatorial and inconsiderate. Too much pull and you seem weak and insubstantial. Just how much of which is best will be proven by only one thing: the result.
In science, one might think there would not be much use for assertion, as we expect to have "a thinking population or people who do not like being dictated to." But some areas of science aren't very, well, scientific.

Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 4:38
by Bagge
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Silly me, yes indeed. I forgot. This is Lymeland. Lymeland is where patients protect the doctors that rape their fellow patients. Darn! I keep forgetting that. No matter what, we've gotta protect those docs.


Goooooo ILADS!!

I'm out.

Edit to insert the word "protect".

Re: One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012

Posted: Fri 25 Jan 2013 6:24
by Camp Other
Bagge wrote:.

Silly me, yes indeed. I forgot. This is Lymeland. Lymeland is where patients protect the doctors that rape their fellow patients. Darn! I keep forgetting that. No matter what, we've gotta those docs.


Goooooo ILADS!!

I'm out.

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Hey Bagge,

We've discussed that situation you linked to elsewhere on this forum ages ago, so why are you repeating it here? Old news. Off topic. And anyone who has been responding to this thread already knows about it, so you aren't informing us with anything new.

Enjoy your vacation. We'll stay here and talk about actual case counts and predictive modeling for tick borne illnesses while you're away.

I