Never was nor will be one only infected with Borrelia

Medical topics with questions, information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Martian
Posts: 1944
Joined: Thu 26 Jul 2007 18:29
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands

Re: B. burgdorferi infection and immune responses

Post by Martian » Sat 18 Oct 2014 2:50

Margherita wrote: About Bartonella:

A study, effected in 1999 by the National Institue of Health in my country resulted as follows:

45% of ticks was infected with Erlichia
13% of ticks was infected with Borrelia
70% of ticks was infected with Bartonella !!
The study doesn't actually state that, it is much more nuanced. Since you didn't provide a proper reference to the study, forum readers can't check your statement right away, unfortunately.

The 1999 study is this one:

Schouls LM, Van De Pol I, Rijpkema SG, Schot CS. Detection and identification of Ehrlichia, Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato, and Bartonella species in Dutch Ixodes ricinus ticks. J Clin Microbiol. 1999 Jul;37(7):2215-22.

Here is the full text: http://jcm.asm.org/content/37/7/2215.long

The abstract says:
In more than 70% of the ticks 16S rRNA gene sequences for Bartonella species or other species closely related to Bartonella were found.
The full text says:
Sequencing of 11 of the products obtained by PCR for Bartonella revealed that none represented B. henselae or B. quintana but closely resembled Bartonella vinsonii. However, the region of the 16S rRNA gene that was used for the PCR for Bartonella does not carry enough variation to reliably distinguish B. vinsoni from other closely related Bartonella and Rhizobiumspecies.
Got that?


Also very relevant are the following pieces of information:
I. ricinus ticks were collected from infested roe deer (Capreolus capreolus) shot in the Flevopolder in The Netherlands, an area where roe deer are abundant.
The majority of the ticks were adults, mainly females; and some were nonengorged, some were semiengorged, and some were fully engorged.
Who understands why this is relevant?


Besides all this, AFAIK it is still not established that Bartonella can be transmitted by ticks to humans, cause an infection and disease.

velvetmagnetta
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun 23 Feb 2014 22:47

Re: B. burgdorferi infection and immune responses

Post by velvetmagnetta » Sat 18 Oct 2014 4:23

Phantasm -

You need to get over yourself. We are all made up of more than 90% bacterial DNA! We are more bacteria than human. Get over it. Get a dog.

http://www.ted.com/talks/bonnie_bassler ... ommunicate

User avatar
ChronicLyme19
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon 11 Aug 2014 17:42
Location: NY, USA

Re: B. burgdorferi infection and immune responses

Post by ChronicLyme19 » Sat 18 Oct 2014 4:31

admin wrote:
If someone disagrees with statements of phantasm, don't hesitate to respond to them.
Trying not to encourage off topic posts by not responding.
Half of what you are taught is incorrect, but which half? What if there's another half missing?

User avatar
ChronicLyme19
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon 11 Aug 2014 17:42
Location: NY, USA

Re: B. burgdorferi infection and immune responses

Post by ChronicLyme19 » Sat 18 Oct 2014 4:44

I will respond if it's A, on topic, B views are backed by referenced studies, C argument doesn't regress to Dalton's or Lyme morgellons posts.
Half of what you are taught is incorrect, but which half? What if there's another half missing?

phantasm
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun 24 Aug 2014 22:42

Re: B. burgdorferi infection and immune responses

Post by phantasm » Sat 18 Oct 2014 6:54

Now everyone please don't get upset over something so trivial . I believe I backed up my statement and everything I posted was in reference to Pathogenic bacteria. really it's not something to get all mad about.

Here is a favorite article of mine , BTW.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100128/

"Do Bartonella Infections Cause Agitation, Panic Disorder, and Treatment-Resistant Depression?"


Have a nice weekend!

~d

P.S. actually Daltons are fairly important in the larger context of the lyme disease discussion.

velvetmagnetta
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun 23 Feb 2014 22:47

Re: B. burgdorferi infection and immune responses

Post by velvetmagnetta » Sat 18 Oct 2014 8:03

How original. Use an awful consequence of a disease (the very same disease you assume we all have) to insult others who disagree with you. You really think you're the first crazy know-it-all asshole to do that?

admin
Site Admin
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed 25 Jul 2007 21:06

Re: Never was nor will be one only infected with Borrelia

Post by admin » Sat 18 Oct 2014 13:52

Previous 26 posts split from topic B. burgdorferi infection and immune responses and moved it to this new topic.

Reason: information and discussion is too off-topic and too off-science.

Margherita
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu 27 Sep 2012 18:22

Re: Never was nor will be one only infected with Borrelia

Post by Margherita » Sat 18 Oct 2014 14:06

Got that?
How can I get that when it's not included in the article I red??
(Source: Dutch Association for Lymepatients, bulletin nr. 02/2014)

Thanks anyway for your kind efforts in supplying these additional details Martian ;) .
Besides all this, AFAIK it is still not established that Bartonella can be transmitted by ticks to humans, cause an infection and disease.
Of course. How can this be established if patients are not tested for Bartonella after a tickbite and if/or when they are, the test only refers to the Henselae strain? What about starting a xenodiagnosis trial between Bartonella infected ticks and humans?

Have a nice weekend!

Martian
Posts: 1944
Joined: Thu 26 Jul 2007 18:29
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands

Re: Never was nor will be one only infected with Borrelia

Post by Martian » Sat 18 Oct 2014 14:40

Margherita wrote:
Got that?
How can I get that when it's not included in the article I red??
(Source: Dutch Association for Lymepatients, bulletin nr. 02/2014)
I have just checked the article about tick-bite co-infections in the Netherlands in that bulletin. The article is indeed not providing proper and complete information. It appears that the data is a little twisted.

This goes to show that authors needs to provide clear references when making claims, and that readers need to check the original sources before adopting the claims.

I also notice that the article is claiming that "Recent publications provide sufficient evidence that we can assume that Bartonella can also be transmitted by a tick bite". However, no references to publications are given. The article just goes on to say that high percentages of ticks infected with Bartonella were found in studies.

Margherita
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu 27 Sep 2012 18:22

Re: Never was nor will be one only infected with Borrelia

Post by Margherita » Sat 18 Oct 2014 14:42

Thanks for verifying Martian. And my apologies if my post was misleading (but this is what I had at my disposal).
With regard to sientific evidence that ticks might transmit Bartonella, I found the following study:


Source: Pubmed
1Laboratory of Rickettsiae, Chlamydiae, and Enzotic Spirochetes, National Institute of Public Heath-National Institute of Hygiene, Warsaw, Poland.
Author information: Pls. see the Original article.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21083370


The occurrence of spotted fever rickettsioses and other tick-borne infections in forest workers in Poland.


abstract:

The presence of antibodies to Rickettsia conorii, R. helvetica, R. felis, R. slovaca, R. sibirica, and R. massiliae in sera of 129 forest workers from northeastern and southern Poland was assayed by indirect immunofluorescence. Previous environmental studies revealed presence of spotted fever group (SFG) rickettsiae in ticks collected from these areas. Additionally, the workers were examinated for the presence of antibodies specific to other tick-borne bacteria: Anaplasma phagocytophilum, Bartonella spp., and B. burgdorferi. The results of the studies have shown the presence of specific SFG rickettsiae antibodies in 14.7% of tested forest workers, among them 78.9% had species-specific antibodies to R. massiliae. Contrary to previous detection R. helvetica and R. slovaca in ticks collected in the environment of the examined area, no species-specific antibodies to these species were detected in studied workers. Antibodies to B. burgdorferi (44%) were found in forest workers more often than antibodies to other tested pathogens. B. burgdorferi was also the main component of coinfections. The most frequent confirmed serologically coinfections were simultaneous infections with B. burgdorferi and Bartonella spp. found in 10% of tested individuals. So far, SFG rickettsiae infections have not been diagnosed in Poland; however, the presence of the bacteria in ticks and presence of specific antibodies in humans exposed to arthropods show the need for monitoring the situation. The list of tick-borne pathogens is increasing, but knowledge about the possibility of humans acquiring multipathogens infections after tick bite still needs evaluation.
Pls. tell me if I misunderstood.

P.S. Perhaps the problem with regard to Bartonella testing is the same as with Borrelia, i.e. the many different strains. Example: can B. Miyamotoi be detected with the actual Western Blot testing?

Locked