Definition of late-stage Lyme disease

Medical topics with questions, information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
phyfe
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by phyfe » Tue 9 Dec 2014 17:49

Like most infections, if untreated it is likely to go from bad to worse over time. If you want “stages” then consider these: inoculation, colonization, infection, over symptoms, tissue damage.

“As a rule, is Lyme self-limiting?” As a rule, no. But about 10% of cases apparently are if serosurveys in NY, CT, Ireland and Switzerland are an indication.
hv808ct, could you please go into more detail on your stages? Is it possible for you to relate them the current stages that seem to be the norm when anyone talks about Lyme. (eg. localized early, early disseminated, late stage).

Henry
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Henry » Tue 9 Dec 2014 18:45

Duncan: In response to question #1, it should be obvious that I view Lyme disease as a continuous process that cannot be divided conveniently into distinct stages. Lyme disease that is 4 years old (see the paper by Schoen) is treated in the same way as Lyme disease that is 4-6 months old.

Question #2: I don't know how to answer this question, since I don't believe I have ever raised that issue. There are cases where the immune system is sufficiently strong to cure the infection without antibiotic therapy. Since the infection in humans is not as widely disseminated as it is in the mouse, humans don't appear to be a natural host for Lyme disease. This suggests that the extent of infection is much more limited in humans than in the mouse which is a natural host. But, the infection is not life-threatening or fatal in either case.

Perhaps I should mention the result of experiments Pachner did in non-human primates. The only way he could induce an infection of the CNS with the strains of Borrelia that he used was to treat with an immunosuppressive drug (steroids). This also led to a high level of bacteremia that persisted the whole time the animals were on steroids. However, when he took the animals off steroid, the bacteremia dropped "like a rock" with the rapid appearance of serum antibody and the CNS was cleared of infection. All this happened without antibiotic treatment. This suggests to me that the immune system has a powerful influence in limiting borreliosis.
Last edited by Henry on Tue 9 Dec 2014 19:02, edited 1 time in total.

duncan
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by duncan » Tue 9 Dec 2014 18:57

admin, do you think it appropriate to break this thread off into a new one? Maybe starting on Sunday at the point in time when Henry asked Lorima to explain what she meant by late stage Lyme? We seemed to have wandered from the original theme of the thread, yet I think this subject has assumed a life of its own, and there may be merit to keeping it alive.

Henry
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Henry » Tue 9 Dec 2014 19:04

admin: I have no plans to continue with this discussion -- which is going no where-- since I have really said all that I can and need to say.

duncan
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by duncan » Tue 9 Dec 2014 19:15

Henry, what do you mean by a continuing process? Are you suggesting there are no clear delineations that could be fragmented and scrutinized as distinct processes? How do you explain initial infection and the appearance of an EM, to later when the EM disappears and symptoms become more or less pronounced? Or the dissemination of spirochetes from a centralized point to a more elusive population? Lots of ways to cut this, including hv808ct's. Diseases or conditions that are broken into stages - this doesn't mean those diseases aren't fluid, Henry. Come on! This is basic stuff. "Continuing process"? Continuing to what? Please explain how you are using "continuing process"?

The Schoen paper? Eh, it's not helping you. It's a single case. We both know if I offered up a single case you'd be on me like white on rice.

You do not know how to answer if you consider whether Lyme is self-limiting or not - because you didn't bring it up? Well, step back for a moment and think. I can wait.

And what's with this humans are not a natural host for Lyme? Are we unnatural hosts? The inescapable fact is Bb infects humans. It infects them, and it infects them to varying degrees and for various durations. The jury is out on whether it can infect them for life, isn't it, because when people die who may have Lyme, all that is noted is the cause of death. I think this would be a wonderful study if done by an independent group: How many people still claim to have Lyme right up to just before they died.

The infection is non-life threatening or fatal? Seriously? Well, that is seriously incorrect. Three fatal Lyme cardiac cases in the New York area this past year alone. But that aside, it can be life altering, and I don't mean that in a good way. It can be debilitating. It can be disabling. You want to call those claims myths,too?

Henry
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by Henry » Tue 9 Dec 2014 22:08

I think I have provided enough information to answer these questions. You just don't like my answers......

duncan
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by duncan » Tue 9 Dec 2014 22:23

It's not that I don't like them. And it's not that I just thought what responses were provided were sophomoric, although I did, and I had hoped for something more elevated from you. I have had first-year college students that had more professional presentation and exhibited better logic flow and provided more support than you have been able to muster these past few days. But that wasn't the problem.

The problem I had was you dodged my questions. Again. Several times, actually. And that your answers were not true answers, but rather deflections, or so it seems to me.

But I mean that in a good way.

duncan
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Re: Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbio

Post by duncan » Wed 10 Dec 2014 12:32

Henry, what did you mean this Monday when you wrote, "...it doesn't make sense to blame the medical community for not being able to treat such a 'mythical' condition, does it?"

You were speaking about late stage Lyme.

Were you acknowledging that late stage Lyme can frequently be refractory to treatment, regardless of its manifestations?

That the medical community often is not able to successfully treat late stage Lyme?

admin
Site Admin
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Re: Definition of late-stage Lyme disease

Post by admin » Wed 10 Dec 2014 13:08

Previous 38 posts split from topic Rebuttal published to CDC vs Advanced in J Clin Microbiology, because it consists of an off-topic discussion. Please use the "New Topic" button more often when a discussion wanders off.

Further, once again I ask you to keep the information and discussion substantial. Some of you are pushing it with the ad hominems.

duncan
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Joined: Wed 5 Sep 2012 18:48

Re: Definition of late-stage Lyme disease

Post by duncan » Wed 10 Dec 2014 13:17

Thank you, admin. I had thought about starting a new thread the other day, and although I know how to do that, I was out of my depth when it came to trying to figure out how to move posts, or even if I had that right - which I assume I did not.

This is much cleaner and reduces the possibility of confusion, while it maintains the integrity of Dr. MacDonald's thread.

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