Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

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lyme_ola
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Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by lyme_ola » Thu 15 Sep 2016 14:48

Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

I have been treated for lyme at the St Georg clinic in Germany. For those who do not know - the treatment at St Georg is based on whole body hyperthermia which means that the whole body (including head) is heated to 41.8 degrees and this is supposed to kill the borrelia (since the borrelia bacteria dies at 41.6 degrees).

However, after the treatment I have done a so called darkfield microscopy test. The good news was that they could no longer find any borrelia spirochetes (which was found before the treatment) however they did find borrelia in cystic forms.

And this worries me since from what I have learned, borrelia in cystic forms are more or less "just waiting for the right moment to transform into a spirochete again". And if that happens, well then I guess all symptoms will come back.

When I asked St Georg about this, the doctor replied:
"According to my knowledge the cysts stay in the body after hyperthermia, but do not progress in development."

Does anybody here know if that is 100% correct? Am I safe also with the cystic form of Borrelia in my blood after hyperthermia treatment?

thanks in advance
lyme_ola

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ChronicLyme19
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Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by ChronicLyme19 » Fri 16 Sep 2016 2:43

Search the forum on round bodies. I believe they aren't technically cysts, but round bodies? And if so, I don't see why they couldn't revert under the right environment and start to grow again.

Have you tried dapsone yet? I am asymptomatic on antibiotics now, but when I go off I relapse. I started dapsone recently and it flared up differently than any other antibiotic I have tried so far. Dapsone was the antibiotic identified in the Johns Hopkins study as being effective at killing round bodies in vitro.
Half of what you are taught is incorrect, but which half? What if there's another half missing?

Anushka
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Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by Anushka » Wed 21 Sep 2016 11:08

@ChronicLyme19,
Have you tried dapsone yet? I am asymptomatic on antibiotics now, but when I go off I relapse. I started dapsone recently and it flared up differently than any other antibiotic I have tried so far. Dapsone was the antibiotic identified in the Johns Hopkins study as being effective at killing round bodies in vitro.
Can you elaborate a bit ? Do you mean your symptom free on Dapsone and by "flared up" you mean you had a different experience than the usual herx from ........ ?

Thanks for sharing
Anushka
Anushka

Anushka
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Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by Anushka » Wed 21 Sep 2016 11:49

@lyme_ola

Screen Shot 2016-09-21 at 2.43.08 PM.png
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The Strategy of Morphological Variation in Borrelia burgdorferi & Other Spirochetes
1900-2001
Under stressful conditions, the treponeme ‘packs’ itself into a compact roll and becomes covered with a transparent mucoid capsule, which resists the penetration of drugs and antibodies. The organisms may persist in this form for a prolonged period without any reaction from the host. The encysted treponemes and the host coexist more or less peacefully, but under propitious circumstances the cysts may be transformed again into the usual spiral, which damages the cells of the host and elicits a response.”
—Ovcinnikov NM; Delectorsku VV. 1971.
“The cyst forms seem resistant to conventional antibiotics. Note the enormous concentration of tetracycline needed to inhibit cysts, much greater than that achievable in humans.” (b)
—(a)Alban PS; Johnson PW; Nelson DR. 2000. —(b)Alban PS; Nelson DR. 1999.
My guess is that heat therapy is one "stressful condition" which could trigger the spirochete to "pack" itself up. If heat therapy alone is able to really kill them I doubt. Maybe in combination with antibiotics ?

Than again, if Salvarsan was not able to fully eradicate Syphilis spirochetes
The action salvarsan has on spirochaetae in general is phenomenal. No spirochaetae are found in films made from the blood or discharge from a chancre after 48 hours following a single injection. ...In spite of this recurrences occur again and again. ...
Apart from the seemingly endless changing forms, I think any treatment success, or failure, might also depend on how long you have been sick and which tissue has been invaded (joints, bone, heart, central nervous system, brain ....) and how much damage has been done which might not be reversible -- like the damage to the immune system after years of chronic immune activation which eventually will lead to immune exhaustion.
Anushka

lou
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Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by lou » Sat 24 Sep 2016 23:55

I'm afraid you are right. How depressing.

Anushka
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Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by Anushka » Wed 28 Sep 2016 1:55

lou wrote:I'm afraid you are right. How depressing.
Sorry, did not want to depict any kind therapy, or this specific approach, as hopeless. Was just trying to answer Lyme-ola question in context. What is really depressing me, is the indifference and misinformation spread by health institutions about the complexity and seriousness of this chronic infection.
Last edited by Anushka on Thu 29 Sep 2016 8:38, edited 1 time in total.
Anushka

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ChronicLyme19
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Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by ChronicLyme19 » Thu 29 Sep 2016 3:37

Anushka wrote:Can you elaborate a bit ? Do you mean your symptom free on Dapsone and by "flared up" you mean you had a different experience than the usual herx from ........ ?
So it took about 2-3 years, but a combo of multiple antibiotics, herbs, and vitamins has gotten me to the point I'm symptom free while on them (also, I only went about 2 years from bite to diagnosis). They have tried 3 times unsuccessfully to stop the antibiotics, and every time I have relapsed within 2-3 weeks being off antibiotics. I recently started on dapsone, working up from 25mg to 100mg in 25 mg steps. All the symptoms that I had when I first was bitten by the tick flared, neck stiffness/pain, flu-like symptoms, it's the exact same feeling/symptom pattern as when I first became ill. No other herb/antibiotic has done that so far, and so I am very hopefully that the dapsone got at some of the dormant stuff. Plan is to try and keep me on it for 6-12 months, like they do with other persisting infections, and then hopefully I can come off the antibiotics for a while without relapsing.

The only permanent damage I seem to have is near the T2-T3 vertebrae/ribs in my back tend to still fall out of place and get stuck, and I now have a severe IgG deficiency. The IgG deficiency has gotten a little better with treatment, and my IgM and IgA which were once deficient as well are now normal. I've been very blessed that I respond well to treatment.
Half of what you are taught is incorrect, but which half? What if there's another half missing?

Anushka
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Joined: Tue 4 Nov 2014 17:54

Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by Anushka » Thu 29 Sep 2016 9:03

@ChronicLyme19

Thank you so much for sharing.

Your relapse pattern is like I experience my "worsening again" as well. Only I have long term damage (stage III) and have been treated insufficiently, so I never got to the point of symptom free yet. Not even close......

It sounds like Dapsone is giving you a proper Herx. I think in Leprosy, and earlier also for Rheumatism, Dapsone is usually given for many years. That makes it a good candidate for long term treatment. Sometimes it is also given in combination with Rifampin, which would also make it a good combination if co-infections like Anaplasma are present, I think. I am wondering though if it will be enough for an infection which has gone into joints and bones .... Usually only infusion combinations seem to work bone related stuff. And I wonder if side effects are going to be a major problem. Bactrim (another Sulfa based med) has caused me troubles with bronchial stuff.

Anyway, I hope you will recover completely!
Anushka

Anushka
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Re: Borrelia in cystic form after hyperthermia treatment at St Georg clinic

Post by Anushka » Sat 24 Dec 2016 14:50

@ChronicLyme19

Hi

It has been a while ......how are you doing with the Dapsone ?

Anushka
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