pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Medical topics with questions, information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
minitails2
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Joined: Sat 3 Nov 2007 10:27

Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by minitails2 » Sat 23 Feb 2008 3:19

Hi Nick,

Nick, you stated that
One could have chronic symptoms that are caused by a form of Bb that is resistant to antibiotic treatment (e.g. because of CWD/cyst form). If a symptom does not respond to AB treatment that does not rule out that there is an infection. Bb are NOT bacteria, most of the experience with antibiotics simply does not apply because we still know very little about spirochetes; yes, some treponemas get killed quicly with penicillin, but that is just one of many very diverse spirochete species. At least the slow growth and apparently pleomorphic nature of Bb should stop scientists from jumping to conclusions like these.
As I have stated repeatedly, my knowledge of biochem is, to say the least, very limited. Could you help me understand a couple of things you mentioned:

1. I thought the cyst form of Bb was treated by the so-called "cyst busters" like flagyl which are able to get through the hard outer "shell." Is this not correct?

2. I thought that Bb WAS bacteria. Help! My understanding was that spirochetes were one type of bacteria, the most "famous" of which is syphallis. Trephonemas?

Thanks very much for your time in advance. :)

cave76
Posts: 3182
Joined: Sun 12 Aug 2007 2:27

Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by cave76 » Sat 23 Feb 2008 5:11

http://www.dsmz.de/microorganisms/bacte ... s=BORRELIA


Bacterial Nomenclature Up-to-Date

Genus: BORRELIA

Species: in total: 33 show all details
afzelii
anserina

baltazardii
brasiliensis
burgdorferi

caucasica
coriaceae
crocidurae

dugesii
duttonii

garinii
graingeri

harveyi
hermsii
hispanica

japonica

latyschewii
lusitaniae

mazzottii
miyamotoi

parkeri
persica

recurrentis

sinica
spielmanii

tanukii
theileri
tillae
turcica
turdi
turicatae

valaisiana
venezuelensis

****************************

Bacterial Nomenclature Up-to-Date
Genus: TREPONEMA
Species: in total: 29 (include subspecies) show all details
amylovorum
azotonutricium

berlinense
brennaborense
bryantii

carateum

denticola

hyodysenteriae

innocens

lecithinolyticum

maltophilum
medium
minutum

pallidum
paraluis-cuniculi
paraluiscuniculi
parvum
pectinovorum
pertenue
porcinum
primitia
putidum

saccharophilum

socranskii
socranskii subsp. buccale
socranskii subsp. paredis
socranskii subsp. socranskii

succinifaciens

vincentii
*****************************************

************************

However, I've seen taxonomic lists where they'll have both Bacteria and spirochetes listed. ????

This may have something to do with different types of classification--- one by common ancestor, another by morphology and perhaps other ways of classifying. :(

Too late for my brain to work. :)

minitails2
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat 3 Nov 2007 10:27

Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by minitails2 » Sat 23 Feb 2008 9:27

Cavey,
Thanks for the info. :)

kelmo
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Location: Valley of the Sun

Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by kelmo » Sat 23 Feb 2008 15:43

My LLMD says he can knock down Lyme Bb in about a year...it's the bartonella that is very hard to treat. Make sure you treat bartonella.

Nick
Posts: 299
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Location: Zeeland, Netherlands

Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by Nick » Sat 23 Feb 2008 17:10

minitails2 wrote: 1. I thought the cyst form of Bb was treated by the so-called "cyst busters" like flagyl which are able to get through the hard outer "shell." Is this not correct?
yes, there are cyst busters but those are normally not considered antibiotics; also the mechanism and effetiveness of these cyst busters in real life is uncertain. Proof comes mostly from in vitro experiments which does not say much IMHO for obligatory parasites like Bb. Most standard antibiotics act against the bacterial cell wall (or its synthesis) or block protein synthesis. Because some Bb forms don't have cell walls or hardly any protein synthesis, and there are differences in their biochemical pathways, some antibiotics will not work, or will only kill certain forms.
minitails2 wrote: 2. I thought that Bb WAS bacteria. Help! My understanding was that spirochetes were one type of bacteria, the most "famous" of which is syphallis. Trephonemas?
Bb, just like Treponema, is a spirochete. They are generally considered a kingdom separate from the bacteria, as they have many different properties (genetical, biological, chemical etc.). Trouble is that there is no universally accepted taxonomy lately, so some people would probably call Bb 'bacteria'. I prefer to call them spirochetes to indicate they are VERY different; and because of that, many agents that work against 'normal' bacteria may not work against spirochetes. Spirochetes are just as different from average bacteria (like E.Coli) as humans are different from an Oak tree.

cave76
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Joined: Sun 12 Aug 2007 2:27

Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by cave76 » Sat 23 Feb 2008 17:23

***Bb, just like Treponema, is a spirochete. They are generally considered a kingdom separate from the bacteria, as they have many different properties (genetical, biological, chemical etc.). Trouble is that there is no universally accepted taxonomy lately, so some people would probably call Bb 'bacteria'. I prefer to call them spirochetes to indicate they are VERY different; and because of that, many agents that work against 'normal' bacteria may not work against spirochetes. Spirochetes are just as different from average bacteria (like E.Coli) as humans are different from an Oak tree.****

That's interesting---- and helps clear up a little of my confusion---- and explains why some sites refer to 'bacteria AND spirochetes'.

But---- we still use antibiotics to kill them. Hopefully.

Maybe there will be a drug developed that called a spirochetalcidal (SP????) :)

Or an antispiroic? Getting silly here---- I'll shut up.

Nick
Posts: 299
Joined: Wed 19 Sep 2007 19:10
Location: Zeeland, Netherlands

Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by Nick » Sat 23 Feb 2008 17:40

cave76 wrote: But---- we still use antibiotics to kill them. Hopefully.

Maybe there will be a drug developed that called a spirochetalcidal (SP????) :)
my point is that one should not expect AB to be extremely effective against spirochetes; this is one of the flawed assumptions I'm seeing in many IDSA articles (and some ILADS articles too).

With more research into Bb and other spirochetes it should be possible to make specific anti-spirochetal agents. But we also have to be cautious about other spirochetes in our body that might be beneficial (e.g. in the gut), so having a specific anti-Bb agent, probably working at the genetic level, would be the best. Maybe the prophage that was found recently in the Bb genome offers some promise.

cave76
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Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by cave76 » Sat 23 Feb 2008 19:31

****one should not expect AB to be extremely effective against spirochetes***

Well, I guess until there's something out there that is specific to keets---- I'll just keep chugging down the abx. :)

What would we take (when that day arrives) to keep from killing all the friendly keets--- just as we take probiotics now. ProKeetotics?

minitails2
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Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by minitails2 » Sun 24 Feb 2008 1:19

Nick,
Thank you, you're helping me understand the underlying issues with lyme treatment.

1. Bb, as a spirochete, may or may not be classified as a bactieria, depending on which system is used.
2. Treponema pallidum is syphilis, which is also a spirochete. I found the following information interesting:

http://www.cdc.gov/STD/Syphilis/STDFact-Syphilis.htm
Syphilis is a sexually transmitted disease (STD) caused by the bacterium Treponema pallidum. It has often been called “the great imitator” because so many of the signs and symptoms are indistinguishable from those of other diseases.

Secondary Stage
Skin rash and mucous membrane lesions characterize the secondary stage. This stage typically starts with the development of a rash on one or more areas of the body. The rash usually does not cause itching....In addition to rashes, symptoms of secondary syphilis may include fever, swollen lymph glands, sore throat, patchy hair loss, headaches, weight loss, muscle aches, and fatigue. The signs and symptoms of secondary syphilis will resolve with or without treatment, but without treatment, the infection will progress to the latent and possibly late stages of disease.

Late Stage
The latent (hidden) stage of syphilis begins when primary and secondary symptoms disappear. Without treatment, the infected person will continue to have syphilis even though there are no signs or symptoms; infection remains in the body. This latent stage can last for years. The late stages of syphilis can develop in about 15% of people who have not been treated for syphilis, and can appear 10 – 20 years after infection was first acquired. In the late stages of syphilis, the disease may subsequently damage the internal organs, including the brain, nerves, eyes, heart, blood vessels, liver, bones, and joints. Signs and symptoms of the late stage of syphilis include difficulty coordinating muscle movements, paralysis, numbness, gradual blindness, and dementia. This damage may be serious enough to cause death.


Syphilis is easy to cure in its early stages. A single intramuscular injection of penicillin, an antibiotic, will cure a person who has had syphilis for less than a year. Additional doses are needed to treat someone who has had syphilis for longer than a year. For people who are allergic to penicillin, other antibiotics are available to treat syphilis. There are no home remedies or over-the-counter drugs that will cure syphilis. Treatment will kill the syphilis bacterium and prevent further damage, but it will not repair damage already done.
3. I find it interesting that syphilis and now lyme are referred to as the great immitator, they both, I believe are caused by spirochetes and have very diffuse symptoms.

4. I noticed at the CDC website, that they refer to flagyl as an antibiotic, while you, and I'm sure many others, reject this type of classification, with, no doubt reasonable and well reasoned arguments. You shared part of it with us. I wasn't quite clear about your response to cyst busters regarding whether or not you think that that class of meds, whatever they should or shouldn't be called, is effective against Bb in the cyst "stage."

Anyway, I have lots more reading to do.

Thanks again Nick, and thank's Cavie for helping me understand. :)

cave76
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Re: pubmed ... treatment of nervous system Lyme disease

Post by cave76 » Sun 24 Feb 2008 1:40

Lyme became known as the New Great Imitator ----- but there are so many young whipper-snappers around now that it's fading. :)

Just like 'herx'. Who even knows now that it's really the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction? Except us old dinosaurs. :)
And that it doesn't last and last and last----- and certainly not by eating cilantro--- as one enlightened Lymie thought. LOL

****I believe are caused by spirochetes and have very diffuse symptoms.****

Plus Bb has ever so many more genes--- the better to confuse us with. :(
(
Flagyl is called an abx. I don't know if that's 100% correct ---- but I call it The Death Drug. :(

And, mark my words kiddies---- the information about cyst busters has a chink in it's armor. Which I believe (not know) will become larger in the future.

And sorry, admin---- I don't have any citations for that.) :) It's that pesky Woman's Intuition again.

:woohoo:

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