Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Henry
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Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by Henry » Thu 29 Dec 2011 14:39

So what? You seem to be jumping from one unrelated reference to another. Although I would have to read each reference that you cite in full to make a final judgement, the abstracts in most cases state that the studies only "suggest" -- not that they prove-- what they claim to be the case. Furthermore, independent confirmation is lacking. Your problem is that you don't know the difference between scientific evidence and observations that simply "suggest" but prove nothing.

Henry
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Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by Henry » Thu 29 Dec 2011 14:56

Incidentally, the picture that you show is NOT that of red blood cells and a single Borrelial cell. Red blood cells are 6-8 microns in diameter, whereas Borrelia are larger and 20-30 microns in length. In your picture, the red blood cells are clearly larger than the Borrelia (?). Furthermore, the periodicity of the spiral pattern is not typical of Borrelia, which makes me question whether it is a Borrelial cell at all. What you show is a laboratory artifact. I'm afraid that I must conclude that you are in error and have once again jumped to a false conclusion. You are free to believe what you wish and/or imagine if it makes you happy.............

X-member
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Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by X-member » Thu 29 Dec 2011 15:34

Henry, you wrote:
Borrelia are larger and 20-30 microns in length
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/Lyme.html
Borrelia may have a length of 20-30um but a width of only 0.2-0.3um.
More info:

http://www.quark-magazine.com/pdf/quark ... liosis.pdf
Borreliae are typical, highly motile spirochetes 5 to 30 μm long and 0.2 to 0.3 μm wide.
Last edited by X-member on Thu 29 Dec 2011 15:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by X-member » Thu 29 Dec 2011 15:40

Henry, you wrote:
So what? You seem to be jumping from one unrelated reference to another. Although I would have to read each reference that you cite in full to make a final judgement, the abstracts in most cases state that the studies only "suggest" -- not that they prove-- what they claim to be the case. Furthermore, independent confirmation is lacking. Your problem is that you don't know the difference between scientific evidence and observations that simply "suggest" but prove nothing.
You gave us info about early and uncomplicated Bartonella, but are you sure that Bartonella always is uncomplicated, and can it really be uncomplicated toghether with late Lyme?

I posted info about what may be needed instead of only doxy!

More info (from CDC) about Bartonella:

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/ ... ctions.htm
Often, with serious infections, more than one antibiotic is used.
The name of this topic is:

"Studies or research on late complicated Lyme"

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by Henry » Thu 29 Dec 2011 16:56

Carina: Obviously, I was referring to the length -- not the width-- which is 20-30 microns as I correctly stated. Still, in the picture that you show, red cells -- which should only be 6-8 microns in diameter-- are LARGER than the other unknown structure shown -- whatever it is. It certainly is not a Borrelial cell.

Since "complicated: Bartonella infections -- just like "complicated" late (why not early as well? ) Lyme disease can mean anything that you want it to mean, I can not respond to your question. Your arguments are circular. I can not understand what "late complicated Lyme disease" means without data confirming the diagnosis of Lyme disease. I don't see how one can have "late complicated Lyme disease" without having been correctly diagnosed as having early acute Lyme disease in the first place. I believe misdiagnosis is main source of your confusion.

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Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by X-member » Thu 29 Dec 2011 17:03

I will not discuss the correct lenght of the Lyme spirochete with you, Henry! Because you give us the wrong info over and over again! (See my earlier post about the correct info.) And stick to the topic!

This is a topic about:

"Studies or research on late complicated Lyme"

Henry
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Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by Henry » Thu 29 Dec 2011 18:27

I have one last point to make, and then I will leave you to contribute to this discussion all to yourself-- since no one else wishes to participate. Before anyone can proceed with an intelligent discussion of "late complicated Lyme disease", one must first establish that the initial diagnosis of early, active, uncomplicated Lyme disease is correct. That is axiomatic. Otherwise, things would indeed be more than just complicated.

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Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by X-member » Thu 29 Dec 2011 19:36

Henry, you wrote:
I have one last point to make, and then I will leave you to contribute to this discussion all to yourself-- since no one else wishes to participate. Before anyone can proceed with an intelligent discussion of "late complicated Lyme disease", one must first establish that the initial diagnosis of early, active, uncomplicated Lyme disease is correct. That is axiomatic. Otherwise, things would indeed be more than just complicated.
I give an European example:

EM = early lyme, ACA = late Lyme, and that together with some other infection, like Bartonella, Babesia (and so on) and/or some immune deficiency IS a complicated late Lyme infection.

And I started this topic because you said (in another topic):
I neglected to mention that the NIH now spends more that $25M on basic research on Lyme disease. Furthermore, a Congressional mandate requires that it interact closely and regularly with ALL federal agencies doing work on Lyme disease. That's a whole lot of effort for a disease that is not life threatening and has an incidence of about 30,000 reported cases per year. The major problem is not that we don't have sufficient information about Lyme disease. Rather, it is the lack of trust, on the part of vocal activists, with respect to accepting the facts derived from excellent work done by outstanding research scientists and physicians. Compare their credentials and accomplishments to those of the LLMDs and "self-proclaimed" experts on Lyme disease and tell me who ought to be believed and trusted?
And I wonder how much they do about late, complicated Lyme, but I/we don't get any answers.

I am not interested in uncomplicated Lyme at all (and not early uncomplicated Lyme either), but if you wish only to discuss this, I have started a topic for that!

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=7&t=3559

And now I use your own words to say what you should do:
I will leave you (Henry) to contribute to this discussion all to yourself (In that topic!)
Or, maybe someone else like to discuss uncomplicated Lyme with you, I don't know? ;)

Because this is a topic about:

"Studies or research on late complicated Lyme"

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Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by X-member » Sat 31 Dec 2011 0:09

"Immune response in persistent bacterial infections: Identification of Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato
and Chlamydia pneumoniae antigens"

Dissertation

http://kops.ub.uni-konstanz.de/bitstrea ... sequence=1

Quote (but there is more info on the site):
1 Introduction

1.1 Persistent bacteria

Chlamydia pneumoniae and Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato belong to a group of
bacteria that can establish persistent infections in humans, characterized as long-term
or life-long relationship with the host. Persistence is normally established after an acute
infection period and although often not clinically apparent, it can be harmful to the host.
In case of C. pneumoniae, persistent infections have been implicated in the
development of chronic inflammatory diseases, such as asthma and COPD (26, 88,
141) and even more importantly, artherosclerosis (21, 40). Chronic infections with
B. burgdorferi are associated with different clinical manifestations of late-stage Lyme
borreliosis (LB) (235). Like other persistent bacteria, C. pneumoniae and B. burgdorferi
have evolved different strategies to evade the antimicrobial defense of the host’s
immune system. Immune evasion strategies include the inhabitation of an immune
privileged niche or intracellular compartment, host mimicry, extensive antigenic variation
and modification of immune response effector functions. These mechanisms do not only
allow the bacteria to survive but also have important consequences for the development
of reliable diagnostic tools or vaccination strategies. An efficient diagnosis or
vaccination depends on the identification of highly immunogenic and pathogen-specific
antigens, which in case of C. pneumoniae and B. burgdorferi is challenged by their
immune evasion strategies (1, 14, 17). Likely due to this reason, the routine laboratory
diagnosis of C. pneumoniae and B. burgdorferi infections, commonly done by serology,
has important limitations regarding sensitivity and specificity. Furthermore, for both
pathogens, the current diagnosis does not allow discrimination between past and
persistent infection, which is needed to study the risks associated with chronic
infections.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Studies or research on late complicated Lyme

Post by Henry » Mon 2 Jan 2012 19:10

I have trouble distinguishing between "late complicated Lyme disease" and what we in the U.S. call "chronic Lyme disease". I have the strong feeling that neither has anything to do with Lyme disease, but falls within the purview of what some call "medically unexplained symptoms" (MUS) that may not even be due to an infectious disease in the first place. A recent report issued by the Institute of Medicine notes that about 116 million people in the U.S. -- about 30% of the population-- is burdened with some form of undiagnosed acute and/or chronic pain. It is reasonable to assume that many of those who believe that they have chronic Lyme disease might be included in this 116 million cohort. That explains why some people go from one physician to another -- or try one remedy after another-- to no avail, because they refuse to discard the concept of chronic Lyme disease and examine other possible causes for their symptoms. There is the very real possibility that this may not be an infectious disease problem at all, but a problem that requires an unbiased, broad-based multidisciplinary approach to solve.

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