Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Henry
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by Henry » Mon 2 Jan 2012 0:20

Campother: Doxycycline is the antibiotic of choice for Lyme disease. To the best of my knowledge, there are no reports of antibiotic resistance in a clinical setting, i.e., for clinical isolates. The doses of oral doxycycline have been established in many clinical studies over the course of many years; a consensus has been developed which is why this regimen is recommended by the IDSA -- as well as other organizations and expert panels on Lyme disease throughout the world who accept the IDSA guidelines.

IV ceftriaxone is recommended when there are neurological symptoms, primarily because this antibiotic and regimen is known to be beneficial for treating bacterial meningitis where there is inflammation of the CNS. In recent studies, oral doxycycline has been shown to be effective for the treatment of neuroborreliosis in Europe, where the strains of Borrelia are more neurotropic than those found in the U.S.

Treatment resistant Lyme disease deals more with the expression of lingering symptoms (arthritis, neurological) after what has been considered to be adequate antibiotic therapy. Since in many cases these symptoms resolve with time, without additional antibiotic therapy, they are considered to be due to tissue damage, rather than an uncured or antibiotic resistant infection. There is an excellent paper by Alan Steere showing that the percentage of antibiotic treated patients with Lyme arthritis, who experience recurrent arthritic episodes decreases by year of disease and disappear within 9 years of antibiotic treatment -- without additional antibiotic therapy (Ann.Intern. Med. 107; 725, 1987). So, this happens.

As far as comparing Borrelia to other bacteria, it is unfortunate that some activists equate Borrelia infections with what occurs with syphilis. Although both Borrelia burgdorferi and Trepanema pallidum (which causes syphilis) are spirochetes, that is about the extent of their similarities; the pathology produced by both could not be more different. Furthermore, there is another spirochete, Treponema denticola, that is a common inhabitant of the oral flora. Although it acts, in concert with other oral bacteria, to cause gingivitis, the pathology is no where near that of syphilis. So, it is dangerous to make such generalization.

Borrelia are not intracellular pathogens, nor do they "screw themselves into ones brain" after infection. After a very brief period of dissemination in the blood -- within a few hours after infection-- they localize in the collagen matrix tissue where they are accessible to oral antibiotics. They are not intracellular even when they infect the CNS, where they produce very little inflammation. In most cases, as discussed in the recent publication by Halperin, infection of the CNS by Borrelia is rather benign and symptoms like "brain fog" are common to many infections and seem to be mediated by inflammatory cytokines. The Klempner clinical studies on the benefit of extended antibiotic therapy for the treatment of patients with symptoms ascribed to chronic Lyme disease showed no evidence of pathology and inflammation of the CNS vs a vis examination of cerebral spinal fluid. It is time to put all of these misconceptions to rest -- once and for all.

Camp Other
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by Camp Other » Mon 2 Jan 2012 2:20

Henry,

Before I respond to the above, do you think our exchange should be turned into a new thread? We are both veering off topic.

Henry
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by Henry » Mon 2 Jan 2012 14:49

Campother: Sure. What topic would you suggest? I have said most of what I had to say on the issue of cysts which prompted all of this and caused the discussion to veer in a slightly different direction in response to other questions. On the other hand, maybe I should start a new discussion entitled "Ask Henry".

X-member
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by X-member » Mon 2 Jan 2012 16:18

I will help you Henry!

You wrote:
Campother: Sure. What topic would you suggest? I have said most of what I had to say on the issue of cysts which prompted all of this and caused the discussion to veer in a slightly different direction in response to other questions. On the other hand, maybe I should start a new discussion entitled "Ask Henry".
The things YOU want to discuss or the info you want to post Henry, you can do here:

"Info about uncomplicated Lyme"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=7&t=3559

CO wrote (in the earlier post):
I know patients who have had to have longer than typical antibiotic treatment for non-Borrelial infections because of their immune status (and also because they had a coinfection). So a longer treatment may need to be determined on an individual basis. It is also the case that studies referenced in the IDSA guidelines mention some treatment failures which happened with some patients - and in some cases, the patients were given additional treatment by the researchers which fell outside of the study scope. Some were cases of neuroborreliosis too, so the patients were given IV ceftriaxone. So really, to some degree there has to be some latitude in making the best therapeutic decision for the individual.
This can be discussed or given info about here:

"Studies or research on late complicated Lyme"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=7&t=3536

Or here:

"Info about complicated Lyme"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=7&t=3560

This is a topic about:

Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Camp Other
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by Camp Other » Tue 3 Jan 2012 3:26

No, Carina, I'm going to propose topical splits in a different direction.

Henry, these are my suggested breakout topics:

Borrelia antibiotic pharmacokinetics & pharmacodynamics

Antibiotic treatment failures

What is the evidence for autoimmune induced symptoms?

I can break the topical threads out by beginning with quoting and commenting on sections of your text.

There are similar earlier discussions on LNE though, and I think Martian likes to keep all related discussion under such threads - or at least clearly link to related past threads at the top of the first post of a new thread.

Camp Other
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by Camp Other » Tue 3 Jan 2012 3:31

Henry said,
"On the other hand, maybe I should start a new discussion entitled "Ask Henry"."
Entirely your choice, I guess?

Are you ready for the potential onslaught of questions, though?

Henry
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by Henry » Tue 3 Jan 2012 14:53

Camp Other: I think it would be best for me to "chime in" on selected topics when I think that I have some useful insights to offer and not take on what could be a full time job. I do have another life.

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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by X-member » Tue 3 Jan 2012 15:57

Henry wrote:
Camp Other: I think it would be best for me to "chime in" on selected topics when I think that I have some useful insights to offer and not take on what could be a full time job. I do have another life.
When you do that Henry, you often give us a lot of info about other things, too!

And when we want to ask you about the other things you say/claim Henry, then the discussion no longer stick to the topic!

Can you maybe stick to the topic, when you "chime in" Henry?

Because I have had to start a couple of new topics, because you claim a lot of things (in the "wrong" topics), but then you (often) ignore those new topics.

In my eyes it is better if you have your own "information-topic" Henry!

I also have another life, but I have time to take part in this forum, and I can copy parts of what you have claimed (in other topics), and paste it in a new topic, and then we can see if what you claim is based on true facts?

You have given me the wrong facts at least one time, so I am actually "a bit suspicious" about what you tell us (with your own words), or claim that other people say.

Margarita
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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by Margarita » Tue 3 Jan 2012 20:11

Before we close this topic, can I ask you, Henry, another question?

From what I understand your opinion is that Flagyl type of drugs do no good for Lyme sufferers since borrelia round forms are just dying bacteria.
What about biofilm? Some in the ILADS seem to be saying that Flagyl and such might help dissolve it. Or is Eva Sapi's research in your opinion is totally off the wall?

Also Prof. Sam Donta's conviction about borrelia going intra-cellular and hiding there from antibiotics and from the immune system. Are you saying that borrelia is never intra-cellular????

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Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by X-member » Tue 3 Jan 2012 23:30

I can answer your question, Margarita.

You say:
From what I understand your opinion is that Flagyl type of drugs do no good for Lyme sufferers since borrelia round forms are just dying bacteria.


Round forms ARE NOT dying bacteria, it is another form that the Lyme bacteria can take! And the Lyme bacteria often do this when it is exposed to abx.

Henry probably make the conclusion that the round form is not important, because he is soo convinced, that a Lyme infection can not survive a 4 week long treatment.

And when I ask Henry for how long time the round form can survive, he only guess. It is better to check Brorsons info about that.

But I can answer about my own experiences with Flagyl. This work very good for me 8-) . What form of the bacteria it work on, I am not so very interested in at all! But Eva Sapi have done a study outside the body with Flagyl and this has shown that Flagyl work both on spiros AND the round forms, but a study outside the body is not the same as inside the body.

Brorson actually don't say that the round form have to be the reason for a more hard-to-cure Lyme, he only say IT COULD BE the reason! And he also say probably not in early Lyme stages, but maybe in later Lyme stages.

http://www.fms-cfsfriends.com/2008/BorrCyst.pdf

And if Henry only talk about early Lyme, he is right but his explanations for it, is wrong. The round body is NOT dead bacteria, it is alive and can revert back to a spirochete again.

The link I gave you is in Norwegian (if you want to use google translate).

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