Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Post Reply
X-member
Posts: 9001
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by X-member » Tue 3 Jan 2012 23:59

And you also asked about biofilm, Margarita!

The problem with colonies of bacteria, is that it is hard for the abx to reach every bacteria inside it.

But those bacteria that the abx reach, in those cases it is the same as with single bacteria. As in Eva Sapis study.

I give you Eva Sapis study too:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753890
Infect Drug Resist. 2011;4:97-113. Epub 2011 May 3.
Evaluation of in-vitro antibiotic susceptibility of different morphological forms of Borrelia burgdorferi.
Sapi E, Kaur N, Anyanwu S, Luecke DF, Datar A, Patel S, Rossi M, Stricker RB.
SourceLyme Disease Research Group, Department of Biology and Environmental Sciences, University of New Haven, New Haven, CT, USA;

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Lyme disease is a tick-borne illness caused by the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi. Although antibiotic therapy is usually effective early in the disease, relapse may occur when administration of antibiotics is discontinued. Studies have suggested that resistance and recurrence of Lyme disease might be due to formation of different morphological forms of B. burgdorferi, namely round bodies (cysts) and biofilm-like colonies. Better understanding of the effect of antibiotics on all morphological forms of B. burgdorferi is therefore crucial to provide effective therapy for Lyme disease.

METHODS: Three morphological forms of B. burgdorferi (spirochetes, round bodies, and biofilm-like colonies) were generated using novel culture methods. Minimum inhibitory concentration and minimum bactericidal concentration of five antimicrobial agents (doxycycline, amoxicillin, tigecycline, metronidazole, and tinidazole) against spirochetal forms of B. burgdorferi were evaluated using the standard published microdilution technique. The susceptibility of spirochetal and round body forms to the antibiotics was then tested using fluorescent microscopy (BacLight™ viability staining) and dark field microscopy (direct cell counting), and these results were compared with the microdilution technique. Qualitative and quantitative effects of the antibiotics against biofilm-like colonies were assessed using fluorescent microscopy and dark field microscopy, respectively.

RESULTS: Doxycycline reduced spirochetal structures ∼90% but increased the number of round body forms about twofold. Amoxicillin reduced spirochetal forms by ∼85%-90% and round body forms by ∼68%, while treatment with metronidazole led to reduction of spirochetal structures by ∼90% and round body forms by ∼80%. Tigecycline and tinidazole treatment reduced both spirochetal and round body forms by ∼80%-90%. When quantitative effects on biofilm-like colonies were evaluated, the five antibiotics reduced formation of these colonies by only 30%-55%. In terms of qualitative effects, only tinidazole reduced viable organisms by ∼90%. Following treatment with the other antibiotics, viable organisms were detected in 70%-85% of the biofilm-like colonies.

CONCLUSION: Antibiotics have varying effects on the different morphological forms of B. burgdorferi. Persistence of viable organisms in round body forms and biofilm-like colonies may explain treatment failure and persistent symptoms following antibiotic therapy of Lyme disease.

ChuckG
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu 17 Mar 2011 23:45
Location: Berkeley

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by ChuckG » Wed 4 Jan 2012 0:28

I thought that the authors were probably misusing the word "cyst" having researched it, "cyst", a year or two ago.

X-member
Posts: 9001
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cysts)

Post by X-member » Wed 4 Jan 2012 0:52

To say that something have the form of a cyst (cyst form) is not to say that it is a cyst.

But many of us have called it a cyst. Stupid of us, isn't it! :roll:

I did that mistake, and I was actually going to change my post but Henry had already answed it, and after that we have had much to talk about, haven't we? :roll:

Margarita
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun 2 Oct 2011 22:05

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by Margarita » Wed 4 Jan 2012 6:09

I still can't wrap my brain around a fact how science folks can have so wildly different opinions about all the "round form", "biofilm", "intra-cellular" stuff. But then of course my understanding of microbiology is less than minimal.
Which leaves me the only option - to rely on my intuition and common sense.

Carina wrote:
I can answer your question, Margarita.
You say:
From what I understand your opinion is that Flagyl type of drugs do no good for Lyme sufferers since borrelia round forms are just dying bacteria.
Round forms ARE NOT dying bacteria, it is another form that the Lyme bacteria can take! And the Lyme bacteria often do this when it is exposed to abx.

Henry probably make the conclusion that the round form is not important, because he is soo convinced, that a Lyme infection can not survive a 4 week long treatment.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by Henry » Wed 4 Jan 2012 15:32

Margarita: As long as the subject of biofilms has been raised, I have this to say:

The classic and accepted definition of a biofilm is an extracellular product that is excreted by a growing microorganism to form a protective surface barrier. Most often, this extracellular product takes the form of a polysaccharide or protein slime layer. With respect to Borrelia, they do not form and/or excrete any such extracellular product; the work of Sapi is a laboratory artifact. What she has reported in her paper, that appeared in a "pay to publish" journal, is to culture Borrelia in micro-wells that were pre-coated with a base layer of rat tail collagen to which Borrelia then attach and grow. That is not a microfilm since the base layer was not excreted by Borrelia. Furthermore, the relevance of such an artifact to what might be happening in vivo is beyond all human understanding.

I must stress that the definition and the correct use of terms is very important in science, since that is how we communicate facts. Those who make up their own terms, or who decided for themselves what accepted terms, mean only cause confusion and impede understanding of the true facts. We've already seen that happen with "cysts" and now with "biofilms". The consequence of such sloppy language is to encourage the use of untested therapies to get rid of these imagined "cysts" and break up these "biofilms" -- that don't really exist.This is how patients get exploited and hurt.

X-member
Posts: 9001
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by X-member » Wed 4 Jan 2012 15:38

Henry! Round bodies exist! Colonies of bacteria exist!

But sometimes we are stupid!

Somewhere on the internet someone told us that biofilm (=colony of bacteria) that it is a green slimy stuff! ;)

Those colonies are actually more grey in the reality!

X-member
Posts: 9001
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by X-member » Wed 4 Jan 2012 16:09

By the way Henry! Use the correct terms! You are a bacteriologist, and you should know them! And you should also know the lenght of a Lyme spirochete! At least the average length of it!

X-member
Posts: 9001
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by X-member » Wed 4 Jan 2012 16:39

Henry, you also wrote:
Furthermore, the relevance of such an artifact to what might be happening in vivo is beyond all human understanding.
I have asked a Swedish Lyme specialist about biofilm/bacteria colonies, and he knew what is was, and he DID NOT say that it is an artifact at all!

But you, Henry think that you can claim that!

And remember I have never talked about what happens inside the body, I have ONLY talked about what can be seen in my blood outside the body (in my microscope).

X-member
Posts: 9001
Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by X-member » Wed 4 Jan 2012 16:44

And Henry!

This is what I wrote about Eva Sapis study (see my earlier post):
a study outside the body is not the same as inside the body.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Info about Lyme round bodies (cyst form)

Post by Henry » Wed 4 Jan 2012 16:45

Carina: I am using the correct terms and you are simply WRONG. But, you are entitled to maintain your erroneous opinions.

Post Reply