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Superbug Documentary

Posted: Wed 28 Nov 2012 16:09
by Muscle Car55
http://youtu.be/irPoYCsy-Jk

Just a fascinating documentary on how bacteria is evolving and what we may use to combat the new superbugs in the future, if we make it that far... As the documentary suggest we're running out of time, many different forms of bacteria are becoming resistant to antibiotics.

What it comes down to is do we have enough time and are we intelligent enough.

Dr. David Harper suggests using viruses to comebat bacteria while another, professor bonnie bassler, suggests modifying quorum sensing: the way the bacteria communicates with molecules.

It was absolutely amazing to me how the bacteria within a squid was able to create a self-defense mechanism for the creature, visually glowing. How would the bacteria know that there are predators out there looking for the squid's shadow? Bacteria is communicating with our bodies... It's obvious to me that the bacteria is far more advanced than we ever thought it would be. Our own probiotics within our body keep us from harm's way, self-defense mechanism in a similar sense, but the glowing part just astonishes me.

And yet it still amazes me that there's people in this world that don't believe in evolution.

It makes me wonder why all the sudden past 30 years has borrelia become so aggressive? Is our own way of communication screwing with the receptors of the spirochete as Dr. Klinghardt suggests? It's a wild theory, but yet if someone was to tell you that glowing bacteria within a squid prevented it from being eaten 20-30 years ago, would you believe them?

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Fri 30 Nov 2012 13:27
by Muscle Car55
I also wondered why can't these doctors try pulling some of the anti-microbial agents out of herbs, like garlic, colloidal silver, cats claw etc... No money to be made with this stuff because it's over-the-counter already. Or is it just to weak?

It's always been talked about that bacteria can't evolve against natural antibiotics or is that just a myth?

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Sat 1 Dec 2012 15:07
by dorothy de kok
Thanks for raising this issue, Muscle Carr55.

While I am entirely convinced that Lyme can be chronic and debilitating, and needs to be treated, I am also concerned about the residual affects of the extended courses of antibiotics.

Microbial resistance to antibiotics
IBEZIM EMMANUEL CHINEDUM
Department of Pharmaceutics, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Nigeria, Nsukka, Enugu State, Nigeria
.
Organisms that are normally sensitive to the action of an antibiotic may sometimes develop resistance
or insensitivity to it. This, they may do through destroying the antibiotic or by retaining their growth
even in the presence of the drug. Microbial resistance to antibiotics is now widespread and poses a
serious clinical threat. Microorganisms develop resistance to antibiotics by any of the following
mechanisms: selection, mutation, phage transduction, and transference while microbial resistance can
either be inherent in the organism or acquired through the environment. Factors that have led to the
continued occurrence of bacterial resistance to antimicrobial agents include: over prescription of
antibiotics, use of under dose, prescribers’ irrational attitudes, patients’ demands, inappropriate
advertisements and use of antibiotics in agriculture. Microbial resistance to antibiotics can thus be
minimized through proper enlightenment, more rational antibiotic selection during treatment and proper
legislation.
Tetracycline has been so widely used and misused for
decades and has become worthless for many of the
infections that once designated it as a ‘wonder drug’. The
emergence of vancomycin resistant enterococci (VRE)
has caused great concern because vancomycin is often
the only effective antibiotic against methicillin resistant
Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) strains. So when
methicillin resistant S. aureus acquires resistance to
vancomycin, it will leave us with serious pathogens
untreatable with any existing antibiotics. In no distant
time, resistance of methicillin resistant S. aureus to
vancomycin will be clinically possible because the
transfer of vancomycin resistance from VRE to methicillin
resistant S. aureus has been demonstrated in the
laboratory (Saravolatz, 1982). There is also a problem in
finding new antibiotics to fight new diseases. In the past
two decades, many new bacterial infections have been
discovered – Lyme disease, toxic shock syndrome,
Legionnaires disease, gastric ulcers and ‘skin eating’
streptococci infections.
Transference
Resistance may be transferred from one bacterial genus
to another as a result of an exchange of extrachromosomal
genetic particles (plasmids) during
conjugation. This process occurs in many bacterial
genera including most Gram-negative bacilli. It is most
readily demonstrated among the Enterobacteriaceae.
Resistance to a number of drugs including
aminoglycosides, cephalosporins, chloramphenicol,
fusidic acid, penicillins, and tetracyclines can be
transmitted in this way. Resistance to several antibiotics
may be transferred at one time
. Resistance to other
antibacterial agents such as sulphonamides and
trimethoprim may also arise by transference.
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajfand/a ... 1776/60733

I cannot even begin to imagine that I have any suggestions to offer sufferers and their doctors. But we need to ensure that we are not creating more super bugs by using extended courses of antibiotics that are not bringing significant relief to those who are being treated on a continuous basis.

It may be only anecdotal, but I and many others can attest to the fact that certain natural anti-microbials are making a difference. I have seen chronic rickettsia and chronic C. burnetti infections resolved with the use of herbs. Whether or not borrelia are involved in the resolving symptomology, will be seen when we have results from PCR analysis.

Clearly, microbiologists and infectious disease specialists are going to have to think out of the box. Research also needs to be done into the efficacy or otherwise of unconventional treatments. But, as MUscle Carr55 stated, there is no money in it. In the meantime, those of us who opt for the road less travelled, will have to muddle our way through the potholes and speedbumps of misinformation and quackery.

Dorothy

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Sun 27 Jan 2013 16:49
by Muscle Car55
Very interesting points you brought up dorothy.

There are also articles of how corporations and companies are using too much antibiotics in the meat we eat which in return causing resistant bacteria. Chances are this is the major cause since cattle and chickens on antibiotics constant(long term). Since small portion of dead animals would cost companies money, they treat constant.

The average person in the world only treats with antibiotics when they are sick.

People eat meat on average 4-5 days out of a week. So every time we eat meat, we are getting a low dose of antibiotic. Not to mention the water treatment plant can't filter out all the drugs we put us back into the water supply.

So all in all, blaming it on just long-term antibiotics for human infection isn't reasonable. It's a lot more complex than that.

Not to mention evolution happens naturally, so bacteria would evolve eventually no matter if you treat short-term or what antibiotic you have.

Truthfully there is no safe drug, they all have side effects. And you have to reward to risk ratio.

Again what it comes down to, are we going to be smart enough to come out another means to combat bacteria.

Thank you for your input Dorothy.

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 3:12
by Camp Other
Muscle Car55 wrote:I also wondered why can't these doctors try pulling some of the anti-microbial agents out of herbs, like garlic, colloidal silver, cats claw etc... No money to be made with this stuff because it's over-the-counter already. Or is it just to weak?

It's always been talked about that bacteria can't evolve against natural antibiotics or is that just a myth?
I suspect it's a myth.

At least, there is scientific evidence pointing to malaria becoming resistant to artemisia annua (aka artemisinin) in SE Asia - here is a well-written and cited Nature blog on the issue:

Source: http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/bio ... al_partner

The most important passage:
"In only a few years, the global health community has gone from facing no observable artemisinin resistance among malaria parasites (Enserink, 2005) to a recent report in April 2012 documenting the slow emergence of artemisinin resistance in Southeast Asia (Cheeseman et al., 2012). In comparison, the first signs of quinine resistance did not appear until the 1960s, hundreds of years after its initial, albeit small scale, usage (Ferreira et al., 2005).

It is not clear why artemisinin resistance emerged so quickly. Perhaps ACT is simply ineffective in combating artemisinin resistance in a population of malaria parasites already highly resistant to the secondary drug. Alternatively, perhaps a sufficient number of patients are using cheaper artemisinin monotherapies against WHO recommendations to spur resistance. However, it is clear that resistance will be an ongoing and potentially derailing challenge for what is still an up-and-coming drug."

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 3:35
by Camp Other
dorothy de kok wrote:Thanks for raising this issue, Muscle Carr55.

While I am entirely convinced that Lyme can be chronic and debilitating, and needs to be treated, I am also concerned about the residual affects of the extended courses of antibiotics.

[publications snipped for brevity]

I cannot even begin to imagine that I have any suggestions to offer sufferers and their doctors. But we need to ensure that we are not creating more super bugs by using extended courses of antibiotics that are not bringing significant relief to those who are being treated on a continuous basis.
This is an issue, and even as a number of people do find relief and improvement of their symptoms by using antibiotics longer term, antibiotic resistance is a major and increasingly serious problem. Because of this, I advocate (as many other people do) that the world stops large scale antibiotic use in livestock feed lots and to treat ear infections which very well may resolve with less aggressive treatment.

But eventually, how we treat human infection is going to have to be addressed, and in fact, it's only going to be a matter of time before large scale antibiotic stewardship programs affect how all human infections are treated. I can't say for sure what is going to happen regarding the treatment of Lyme disease in the future, but I can say that the IDSA and other medical organizations are planning to shorten the duration of treatment of all bacterial infections as much as they can if the evidence supports it.

Read this, and you'll get an idea of what the future holds:

The Future of Antibiotics and Resistance
Brad Spellberg, M.D., John G. Bartlett, M.D., and David N. Gilbert, M.D.
N Engl J Med 2013; 368:299-302January 24, 2013DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1215093

Source: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1215093

... One notable item missing (for me, anyway) is phage therapy and the use of phage peptides to treat infections.

I don't know why that wouldn't be proposed in general for a number of infections. I've come to appreciate and better understand why phage therapy probably won't work for Borrelia infections or would be very difficult to implement - but for many skin infections and open flesh infections, I think phage is useful and effective.
dorothy de kok wrote: It may be only anecdotal, but I and many others can attest to the fact that certain natural anti-microbials are making a difference. I have seen chronic rickettsia and chronic C. burnetti infections resolved with the use of herbs. Whether or not borrelia are involved in the resolving symptomology, will be seen when we have results from PCR analysis.
It would be good to know which herbs are effective for both symptomatic relief and antimicrobial characteristics.

How are you going to use PCR to determine that treatment is working for Borrelia? Are the patients in the early acute phase of infection?
dorothy de kok wrote: Clearly, microbiologists and infectious disease specialists are going to have to think out of the box. Research also needs to be done into the efficacy or otherwise of unconventional treatments. But, as MUscle Carr55 stated, there is no money in it. In the meantime, those of us who opt for the road less travelled, will have to muddle our way through the potholes and speedbumps of misinformation and quackery.

Dorothy
That is one of the main issues, yes. I myself want to try treatments which have been tested and the side effects, risks, and benefits are at least somewhat documented - rather than try something for which I'll be out a chunk of change and does little or nothing. Sometimes I do try something which has less evidence to support its use - but I'm very careful about it and only change something one at a time over a long period of time to separate treatment effects.

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 3:54
by Camp Other
Muscle Car55 wrote: The average person in the world only treats with antibiotics when they are sick.
Usually... probably? There are people who get sinus infections and ear infections who are otherwise "average" and doctors treat them with antibiotics when the latest clinically supported advice has become that patients should see if these infections resolve on their own without antibiotic treatment first. Doctors are now advising ear drops without antibiotics and Mucinex and even the use of neti pots with distilled water and sea salt in them.

There are typical health problems the average person experiences for which antibiotics have been overused even when the person is sick. Obviously someone with Lyme disease should be treated with antibiotics as soon as possible - but the use of antibiotics in early infection is not applicable across the board.
Muscle Car55 wrote: People eat me on average 4-5 days out of a week.
Forgive me for pointing it out, but I didn't know you were willing to be a meal for cannibals? :lol:
Muscle Car55 wrote: So every time we eat meat, we are getting a low dose of antibiotic. Not to mention the water treatment plant can't filter out all the drugs we put us back into the water supply.
This is a big issue, and yes, we need to find ways to break down those antibiotic products in the sewage system before they can reenter the water supply, and stop large scale antibiotic dosing of livestock. This might mean volunteering to cut down on eating as much meat as we do - or accepting that we are moving away from factory farm systems and paying a lot more for meat... probably both.
Muscle Car55 wrote: So all in all, blaming it on just long-term antibiotics for human infection isn't reasonable. It's a lot more complex than that.
Yep. It is more complex.

And while I support longer term antibiotic treatment for those who respond favorably, I think we need other options for treatment for those who do not.

And if there is evidence that Borrelia can persist and are antibiotic tolerant, then throwing more antibiotics at the problem doesn't truly solve it - it can only offer relief. What's needed is a new drug that can go in and eliminate the persistent spirochetes.
Muscle Car55 wrote: Not to mention evolution happens naturally, so bacteria would evolve eventually no matter if you treat short-term or what antibiotic you have.
If only phage therapy worked for everything. The viruses that cure evolve WITH the bacteria so it can continue to eat it.

Nature's machinery in evolution at its finest, there!
Muscle Car55 wrote: Truthfully there is no safe drug, they all have side effects. And you have to reward to risk ratio.
Indeed.
Muscle Car55 wrote: Again what it comes down to, are we going to be smart enough to come out another means to combat bacteria.

Thank you for your input Dorothy.
Thanks both of you, this is an interesting topic to discuss.

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 8:44
by Muscle Car55
Camp Other wrote: At least, there is scientific evidence pointing to malaria becoming resistant to artemisia annua (aka artemisinin) in SE Asia - here is a well-written and cited Nature blog on the issue:

Source: http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/bio ... al_partner
Good point, I read about about artemisinin, guess the mouse wasn't turning the wheel in the ol' brain upstairs.
Camp Other wrote:
Forgive me for pointing it out, but I didn't know you were willing to be a meal for cannibals? :lol:
Sh!t, sorry using speech recognition software. :D Can't type because of my arthritis...typo corrected. :mrgreen:

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 9:42
by Muscle Car55
Then there's the notion that bacteria will evolve eventually from just using soap daily(long-term). Eventually soap will have repercussions and cause death due to it causing resistant bacteria. But what do we do, not use soap.

Future will be challenging...

Re: Superbug Documentary

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 10:01
by Camp Other
Muscle Car55 wrote:Then there's the notion that bacteria will evolve eventually from just using soap daily(long-term). Eventually soap will have repercussions and cause death due to it causing resistant bacteria. But what do we do, not use soap.

Future will be challenging...
Avoid using antibacterial soap or soap specifically with the ingredient triclosan. Not just because studies on whether or not antibacterial soap w triclosan can lead to resistance have been debated, but because it can affect muscle function (!):

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 155515.htm

Regular old soap works fine. That and hand sanitizer.

In a lot of cases it's not the soap that kills the germs anyway - it's friction. This is why doctors are instructed to wash their hands and arms, scrubbing the entire time while singing something like "Happy Birthday" a couple times- to extend the period of time spent scrubbing.