Bullying Borrelia

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
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inmacdonald
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by inmacdonald » Wed 23 Jan 2013 17:38

Dear Tosho,
I will send the map of Germany For year 2012

I received this information from Dr. Armin Schwartzbach , who is in the Best position to know the
statistics for his country.

Best,

alan

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inmacdonald
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by inmacdonald » Wed 23 Jan 2013 18:29

Link:
One million cases LymeBorreliosis Germany 2012
http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... f=6&t=4471

Dear Tosho,
I will accept your apology.
Thank you for raising the question.
Best,
Alan

tosho
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by tosho » Thu 24 Jan 2013 1:20

Doctor,
I don't see a reason to apology nor hard feelings. I commented that a statement "One Million New Cases of Lyme Borreliosis in Germany in 2012" is hysterical, and does not build a confidence. It reminds me of one LLMD who said that everyone has Bb infection or another LLMD who said that all cases of MS, Parkinson and ALS that he had seen were due to Bb infection. That is an unnecessary nonsense that only ridicule patients. Please look here:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... ses#p25362

Lyme Borreliosis in 2010 in the 6 eastern states of Germany: 4745 cases, corresponding to an incidence (cases/100,000) of 28.97.
Data source: Robert Koch-Institut: SurvStat.

(we CAN assume that 4745 in 6 states of Germany may be lower than actual number, but not to the point of reaching 1000000 in all 16 states per year!)

Camp Other
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by Camp Other » Thu 24 Jan 2013 1:34

tosho wrote:Doctor,
I don't see a reason to apology nor hard feelings. I commented that a statement "One Million New Cases of Lyme Borreliosis in Germany in 2012" is hysterical, and does not build a confidence. It reminds me of one LLMD who said that everyone has Bb infection or another LLMD who said that all cases of MS, Parkinson and ALS that he had seen were due to Bb infection. That is an unnecessary nonsense that only ridicule patients. Please look here:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... ses#p25362

Lyme Borreliosis in 2010 in the 6 eastern states of Germany: 4745 cases, corresponding to an incidence (cases/100,000) of 28.97.
Data source: Robert Koch-Institut: SurvStat.

(we CAN assume that 4745 in 6 states of Germany may be lower than actual number, but not to the point of reaching 1000000 in all 16 states per year!)
I agree with what you're saying. I think there probably were fewer than 1 million individual CASES of Lyme disease in Germany - but I can easily see there being 1 million VISITS related to Lyme disease recorded for the country. (Closer to over 700,000 visits, given data related upthread.) It may be that other conditions were also followed up on during those visits, and discussion of Lyme disease may have been a minor followup relative to what the rest of the visit covered.

But on one hand, while I do not think all cases of Parkinsons, MS, ALS, etc are misdiagnosed Borreliosis - I think 4745 cases of Lyme disease in 6 states of Germany probably is lower than the actual reported number. Particularly if reporting Lyme disease in Germany is not a requirement.

Where do you draw the line, though, tosho, between reporting the number of cases and estimated number when it actually IS high - versus offering a number that is high and stating because it's high, it's hysteria? How do you tell the difference?

Bagge
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by Bagge » Thu 24 Jan 2013 1:42

.
Camp Other wrote:Where do you draw the line, though, tosho, between reporting the number of cases and estimated number when it actually IS high - versus offering a number that is high and stating because it's high, it's hysteria? How do you tell the difference?
You report the facts as discovered. You don't exaggerate them to make a point and you don't fail to disclose relevant data to make a point.
.

Lorima
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by Lorima » Thu 24 Jan 2013 2:29

Tosho, it sounds like you've made up your mind, and of course that's fine, but did you see the source Dr. M. belatedly provided, here:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 471#p34075

The image/reference to the one million figure, that Dr. M posted above, is from this institution, which seems "legitimate" in the most conservative sense: 
http://www.ifl-leipzig.de/en/about-us/organisation.html 
University of Leipzig

I looked up Dr Kistemann, who is referenced by the U. of Leipzig site as the source of the one million number, and he sounds legitimate, in a conventional sense, also:
 
Thomas Kistemann grew up in Aachen, Germany. He holds an MD degree from Gottingen University, a Masters in geography and a PhD (hygiene & medical geography) from the University of Bonn. He is a medical specialist for hygiene & environmental medicine. Thomas’ interest in medical and health geography was stimulated by field experiences as young research assistant in the Bolivian Andes, together with his impression that German medical geography had traditionally been dominated by medicine and lacked adequate perceptions of modern geography. After some years of clinical work experience, Thomas returned to academia and has held various posts in the Hygiene & Public Health Institute at Bonn University. He leads the department of Medical Geography & Public health and heads the institute’s WHO Collaborating Centre for Health Promoting Water Management & Risk Communication. Additionally, he is professor at the University’s Department of Geography and senior fellow at the Department of Political & Cultural Change of the University’s Centre for Development Research. His research is funded by the German Federal Ministries of Health, Environment and Research, as well as by the European Union. Thomas has taught medical geography, hygiene and preventive medicine since 1993. He has co-published a German textbook on GIS applications in the health system (Wichmann, 2004), a monograph on synergies of nature and health protection (BfN, 2005), and made contributions to books including Infectious Disease Epidemiology (Springer, 2003), GIS in Public Health Practice (CRC Press, 2004), and Water as a Human Right (2007). Thomas organized the Twelfth International Medical Geography Symposium that convened at Bonn University in July, 2007.

Thomas may be contacted at thomas.kistemann@ukb.uni-bonn.de. See also http://www.ihph.de
http://www.ihph.de/english/Thomas-Kistemann.php 

The one million doctor visits might not translate into one million new separate cases, but still, it's a large number of medical visits, indicating a big problem.

The discrepancies between the numbers you cite, and those referenced to Dr. Kistemann, would be those reported by the German equivalent of the US CDC, (which notoriously underreports cases) versus those obtained by looking at payer records for doctor visits, coded for Lyme disease. As I said before, they could be treating tick bites (not a bad idea, in my opinion), or there could be multiple visits from some patients who don't recover when they're treated, but haven't yet been moved to the diagnostic code for ME/CFS, or whatever they decide to call the illness when it drags on. But then there are all the people who don't know they were bit, and aren't having symptoms (yet). They won't be included, in that one million number. 

In any case, it could be wrong, but I don't think it's absurd. I suspect it is closer to the real number of infected people, than the official numbers are. The solution is for people to learn to protect themselves against tick bites. 

Best wishes,
Lorima
"I have to understand the world, you see."
Richard Feynman

tosho
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by tosho » Thu 24 Jan 2013 22:06

Camp Other wrote: Where do you draw the line, though, tosho, between reporting the number of cases and estimated number when it actually IS high - versus offering a number that is high and stating because it's high, it's hysteria? How do you tell the difference?
CO, I just don't see rational arguments to say that in one year one million people in Germany contracted Lyme disease.

RobertF
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by RobertF » Sat 26 Jan 2013 8:54

I hope this will help
Bei den ca. 6,7 Millionen TK Versicherten wurde im Jahr 2008 bei über 61.000 Patienten die Diagnose einer Borreliose gestellt. Diagnosen nach ICD-10: A69.2 (Lyme-Krankheit: Erythema chronicum migrans durch Borrelia burgdorferi) im Jahr 2008. Hochgerechnet auf die Gesamtbevölkerung der Bundesrepublik entspricht dieses über 740.000 Erkrankungen im Jahr 2008!
Damit liegen die tatsächlichen Erkrankungen mehr als 10-fach über den bisherigen Schätzungen.
Die höchsten Erkrankungsraten wiesen mit 1,96% aller TK Versicherten in Sachsen auf. Gefolgt von Thüringen (1,56%), Bayern (1,33%) und Baden-Württemberg (1,1%). Im Durchschnitt erkrankten in ganz Deutschland 0,9% aller TK-Versicherten im Jahr 2008 an einer Borreliose.
Of 6,7 milj Insureds (members)of TK Techniker Kasse (Technian Insurance Comp.) in 208 61.000 Patients were diagnosed with Lyme. Diagnosis acc. ICD-10:A69.2 Lyme Erythema Migrans by B.burgdorferi. Extrapolated to whole German population 740.000 diseases.

The real diseases are a 10-fold of the estatimates.
The highest rate was 1,96% of all TK insureds in Sachen followed by Thüringen by 1.56%, Bavarian 1.33% and Baden-Würtenberg 1,1% In everage in whole Germany 0.9% of all TH insurers contracted Lyme dissease in 2008.

added; In 995 Clinics in Germany the ID-10:A69.2 code is in their TOP 10-list
2013 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code A69.2

Lyme disease
A69.2 is not a billable ICD-10-CM diagnosis code and cannot be used to indicate a medical diagnosis.
There are 5 codes below A69.2 that describe this diagnosis in greater detail.
ICD-10-CM codes come into effect beginning October 1, 2014, therefore, this and all ICD-10-CM diagnosis codes should only be used for training or planning purposes until then.
Applicable To
Erythema chronicum migrans due to Borrelia burgdorferi

Mortality Data
Between 1999-2007 there were 50 deaths in the United States where ICD-10 A69.2 was indicated as the underlying cause of death [source: cdc.gov]
ICD-10 A69.2 as underlying cause of death data broken down by: gender, age, race, year
For 2009 it was 798.400 cases
http://www.bfbd.de/media/artikel/Inzide ... 202009.pdf

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Muscle Car55
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by Muscle Car55 » Sun 27 Jan 2013 14:39

Henry wrote:There is ample evidence that extended antibiotic therapy is not beneficial for the treatment of PTLDS and may even be unsafe. For those who disagree. the time is long overdue for them to present convincing peer-reviewed data in that regard from the published results of placebo-controlled studies, and/or present convincing evidence that the alternative treatments suggested in your tract indeed offer significant benefit. So far, all we have is biased testimony -- no scientific data. Furthermore, the clinical relevance of cysts forms and biofilms has NEVER been demonstrated or proved to be of ANY significance. They are just products of the imagination........... and often laboratory artifacts......
Henry wrote:without additional supporting data-- is a "leap of faith" and not reasonable.
Henry, I come across people like you in so many walks of life. Your thinking process, if you can't measure it does not exist. That way of thinking has really hurt humanity. I recently saw a biography on Einstein. At the time Einstein came up with the theory of relativity, there was no way to prove it. It was all up in his head, but yet they were German scientists that denounced him and bashed him for his theories.

And I'm sorry to say, I've seen the same thing with Dr. MacDonald and many other LLMDs.

You linked article saying that science is under attack. Suggesting that it's the IDSA we should have sympathy for.

Let me tell you something, I live in Michigan I went to 5+ major hospitals and not one of them tested for Lyme disease or even hinted to it. And when I finally got a doctor that suggests that this might be lyme, test came up negative.

The medical system is making these mistakes time and time again, and you're linking to an article suggesting "their science" is under attack. Ummm, we're the ones under attack!

The truth is the medical system has failed with the disease in so many ways. Yet you're supporting them and suggesting that there is no way chronic Lyme could exist.
Henry wrote:Do people with cancer have greater knowledge of its cause and treatment than those who don't, but who study the disease and the evidence-based research connected with it?
I got a heavy-dose of amoxicillin for a month from my family doctor before I even knew what my problem was. He knew I was sick because I've been healthy all my life. This was before before I even had any really bad symptoms, all I had was headaches, runny nose and changes in vision. The month of amoxy didnt knock it out, like your article said it would.

10 months later when I developed arthritic symptoms I knew I had a serious problem on my hands and eventually got a diagnosis from a out of the network osteopath that sent my bloodwork Igenex.

Problem with you and many others is you're not going to believe anyone until you've experienced it firsthand.

You keep on saying there's no proof to show whether or not chronic Lyme exist. Well that statement can be twisted around against you as well, how can you say it doesn't when there's no foolproof 100% test that accurately measure active borellia in the body. Where is your evidence chronic lyme doesn't exist, IDSA has stated time and time again their test aren't 100% fool proof!!!

I definitely agree that the immune system causes a lot of symptoms of Lyme patients. But to say that there's absolutely no active infection somewhere in your body still setting the immune system off?????

I mean who knows what your story is and why you're on this forum to begin with, maybe you had Lyme disease you cured it really quick with month of antibiotics. So that's the way you think. And like David Letterman suggests, everyone else is a Lymenut.

Either way, don't you have something else to do, then ridicule people on this board time and time again that chronic Lyme disease doesn't exist.

I think anyone has the right if they want to use long-term antibiotics, just like anyone has a right to risk smoking or drinking. Those two drugs kill more than antibiotics I guarantee it. So there's something for you to do!!! Truthfully why do you even care, right? Why do you even care? Why are you on here?

Truthfully I know your type and I know there's no one on this earth probably could change your mind. I'm here to tell you that I think chronic Lyme could be autoimmune. See I try to look from both sides, not just one-sided point of view.

But from my own experience, a month of Amoxy didn't knock out my first stage of Lyme. I'm not going to risk not taking long-term antibiotics and put all my eggs in one easter basket saying that it's all autoimmune.

Time and time again I hear stories from people like Mandy Hughes from documentary under our skin, who gave IDSA doctors 10 years to treat their disease. The turnout wasn't good for them I'm not risking that. And guess what, supposedly she just gave a interview this past year saying that she's clear of all her Lyme symptoms after a year of IV antibiotics. I guess within that year, all her autoimmune symptoms just cleared up miraculously huh?

And I laugh at these stupid intricate arguments on whether or not there was 1 million or 700k people that had Lyme disease in Germany. Whether it was 700k or 1 million, what does it matter? The point is people are getting sick and the disease is getting worse. I love the people that just want to debunk everything that has to do this with disease.

The statistics are so far off within the US, now that I can see something arguing about. And yet I don't see people that debunk chronic Lyme, challenging those statistics!!!!
Last edited by Muscle Car55 on Sun 27 Jan 2013 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

Claudia
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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Post by Claudia » Sun 27 Jan 2013 15:40

Muscle Car55:

I mean who knows what your story is and why you're on this forum to begin with, maybe you had Lyme disease you cured it really quick with month of antibiotics. So that's the way you think. And like David Letterman suggests, everyone else is a Lymenut.

Either way, don't you have something else to do, then ridicule people on this board time and time again that chronic Lyme disease doesn't exist.
I really appreciate that Henry has posted on this forum and has engaged in conversation with me and tried to answer some of my direct questions, and the questions of others. I think he has managed to be relatively polite despite some antagonism directed towards him, too. This is an open internet forum. There is certainly a lot of medical and political controversy surrounding Lyme disease, so differing views are to be expected in an uncensored forum, right? I would much rather read the thoughts and opinions here, no matter how much I might not like or agree with them, from somebody who has an educational and professional background in the topics discussed on LNE, even if I don't know what everyone's "story" is. Henry has previously stated why he has been on this forum, and again, I have appreciated it.

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