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Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 4:08
by Camp Other
Lorima wrote:Why does anybody think that insulting and yelling at people is persuasive?
Good question. I don't get it either.

:?:

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 8:15
by Muscle Car55
Camp Other wrote: Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are people here who call Dr. MacDonald a troglodyte or tell him to go back to his basement in order to insult and mock him. So glad to know they've mastered this approach. But it doesn't strengthen their arguments/position or encourage respect for them in terms of their character.

So why do it? Why resort to ad hominem attacks and insults to make a point? You can disagree with someone else or think their research is flawed - whatever - without having to insult them.
Bingo!!!

In the post Henry links saying sciences under attack. What this article probably doesn't suggest is medical research is always changing constantly. It's like technology it's almost impossible stay up to date every day with it. In all honesty they both are related since technology is used to diagnose diseases. To say doctors and scientists already know everything about every disease there is ridiculous.

And for one side(IDSA) to say that they know for sure there is no infection, when they don't have 100% accurate test is very arrogant.

Time and time again I've heard speeches from LLMDs suggesting lyme can lead to autoimmune diseases and that immune system is causing a lot of the inflammation. From my point of view they are suggesting that some cases are autoimmune, but to say that there is no active infection at all with just a month antibiotics is just plain "arrogant!" I see ILADS looking from both sides while IDSA already have their minds made up, which time and time again history states is the wrong thing to do with health and technology since it's always changing.

Back in the day scientists would denounce anyone who said the world was round back in the day, not to mention the Catholic Church that would do all sorts of things to people of science.

I understand you questioning all of Dr. Maconalds work. You have a right to, but there's many people who will not recognize his work at all. Why not look from both perspectives and consider it possible, like I do. Problem is people are biased and they always will be. I guess it's human nature.

You link to an article saying science is under attack, I don't see that, all I see is individuals who don't recognize that science is always changing. There is still thousands of religious people that denounce evolution, they always state there's is not enough "evidence." But I guess there's plenty of evidence of God and Jesus. I think one siders need to get off their soapbox and try look from both sides. Myself, I more lean towards atheism. But in all honesty I still believe there might be some form of God, but it's not what people think but rather some type of energy or balance. But guess what.... I still respect religious people for their views and still suggest there could be a God.

I see a lot extremism within humanity, it's like either you believe one side and you don't believe the other. It's important to look at both sides and respect them.

The title should read "science is being questioned."

But I'll admit I come off rather aggressive too sometimes I apologize for that. Anyways still respect a lot of your opinions Henry, Baggae, hv808ct and agree with a lot you say. I have friends with your point of views on the disease.

And by the way baggy, you can't group all the LLMDs and ILADS as "unethical" because there's a few that are quacks. It's called stereotyping, which history suggests leads to racism, then genocide.

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 10:44
by tosho
inmacdonald wrote: And ,my favorite, the "there is no such thing as" gambit This we have seen frequently on this forum
with contrary affirmative evidence produced to in fact prove " such a thing actally does exist"
This we have seen with:
Re: Bullying Borrelia
by tosho » January 22nd, 2013, 3:21 pm

inmacdonald wrote:
Recall that the German Borreliosis Society, an academic society of German physicians with
a membership diagnosing One Million New Cases of Lyme Borreliosis in the German State, [calendar year 2012]


One million new cases in Germany in one year? This is a completely unreliable information.
Which was followed by : [ in the original German with web links and maps also provided]

Link: http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =6&8t=4477..

--------------------
Germany One Million.jpg
-------------------
German liinks one Million.jpg

________________________
What can I say other than disappointment about the way you create misinformation in a discussed case.

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 11:27
by RobertF
@tosho
I gave the info below, may be you missed this.
The figures are for 2008 and 2009 but we know that there is a annual raise in tickbites
The figures are extrapolated estimates based on data from real EM cases from insurance comp. These figures are probably closer than the official figures from Robert Koch which are also estimates because only 2 states have Lyme as a notifiable disease.
Your remark missed the point.

[quote]http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 3&start=70
I hope this will help

Bei den ca. 6,7 Millionen TK Versicherten wurde im Jahr 2008 bei über 61.000 Patienten die Diagnose einer Borreliose gestellt. Diagnosen nach ICD-10: A69.2 (Lyme-Krankheit: Erythema chronicum migrans durch Borrelia burgdorferi) im Jahr 2008. Hochgerechnet auf die Gesamtbevölkerung der Bundesrepublik entspricht dieses über 740.000 Erkrankungen im Jahr 2008!
Damit liegen die tatsächlichen Erkrankungen mehr als 10-fach über den bisherigen Schätzungen.
Die höchsten Erkrankungsraten wiesen mit 1,96% aller TK Versicherten in Sachsen auf. Gefolgt von Thüringen (1,56%), Bayern (1,33%) und Baden-Württemberg (1,1%). Im Durchschnitt erkrankten in ganz Deutschland 0,9% aller TK-Versicherten im Jahr 2008 an einer Borreliose.


Of 6,7 milj Insureds (members)of TK Techniker Kasse (Technian Insurance Comp.) in 208 61.000 Patients were diagnosed with Lyme. Diagnosis acc. ICD-10:A69.2 Lyme Erythema Migrans by B.burgdorferi. Extrapolated to whole German population 740.000 diseases.

The real diseases are a 10-fold of the estatimates.
The highest rate was 1,96% of all TK insureds in Sachen followed by Thüringen by 1.56%, Bavarian 1.33% and Baden-Würtenberg 1,1% In everage in whole Germany 0.9% of all TH insurers contracted Lyme dissease in 2008.

added; In 995 Clinics in Germany the ID-10:A69.2 code is in their TOP 10-list

2013 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code A69.2

Lyme disease
A69.2 is not a billable ICD-10-CM diagnosis code and cannot be used to indicate a medical diagnosis.
There are 5 codes below A69.2 that describe this diagnosis in greater detail.
ICD-10-CM codes come into effect beginning October 1, 2014, therefore, this and all ICD-10-CM diagnosis codes should only be used for training or planning purposes until then.
Applicable To
Erythema chronicum migrans due to Borrelia burgdorferi
Mortality Data
Between 1999-2007 there were 50 deaths in the United States where ICD-10 A69.2 was indicated as the underlying cause of death [source: cdc.gov]
ICD-10 A69.2 as underlying cause of death data broken down by: gender, age, race, year


For 2009 it was 798.400 cases
http://www.bfbd.de/media/news/pressemappe-12.08.10.pdf

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 14:18
by Claudia
Radicale makes a very good point http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 244#p32244, relevant to this thread.
radicale wrote:
I can add one more personal take on the whole Henry controversy with special emphasis on the discussion between experts and the lay public.

I have brought up several questions regarding confusing Lyme Disease diagnostic and treatment findings for which I would love an answer and clarification. They can be found

here,here,here

and even pleaded for others (at one point specifically Henry) to comment on the validity of these concerns without any feedback. My questions fell on deaf ears. In my eyes it appeared that the experts had only one goal, maintain the status quo. How this can be beneficial I will leave as a rhetorical question?

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 16:24
by tosho
RobertF - I don't think that the information is reliable. Why there is such a huge difference between this:
Of 6,7 milj Insureds (members)of TK Techniker Kasse (Technian Insurance Comp.) in 208 61.000 Patients were diagnosed with Lyme. Diagnosis acc. ICD-10:A69.2 Lyme Erythema Migrans by B.burgdorferi.
and this:
Lyme Borreliosis in 2010 in the 6 eastern states of Germany (Germany has 16 states total): 4745 cases, corresponding to an incidence (cases/100,000) of 28.97.
Data source: Robert Koch-Institut: SurvStat.
Second, I still say that one million new cases per year sounds like an absurd, even at a first glance. Just think what part of German popullation would have contracted borreliosis in a time-frame of 20-30 years, if this estimates were true. 15%, 20%, 25% of the whole popullation? That is obviously not the case.

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 18:01
by Bagge
.
My highlights.

RitaA wrote:Bagge,

It's only because I have these references handy that I'm posting them here. It's difficult for me to tell whether or not you are questioning the autoimmune theory of PTLDS (aka chronic Lyme) that the CDC, NIAID and others support, so please forgive me if I misunderstood your remarks.

MuscleCar55 wrote:
I'm here to tell you that I think chronic Lyme could be autoimmune.
<snip>

Thanks for the information RitaA. I have access to the same. Yes, you did misunderstand, but that too is understandable.

The first document you listed is dated 2001. A lot has happened since that time. PTLDS is not a theory. It's interesting to hear a Lyme patient who is based out of the U.S. say that "chronic Lyme" disease is not due to a persistent infection, but rather an autoimmune disease. My point is that it seems like they are agreeing with the CDC, IDSA, and NIAID, and disagreeing with the ILADS theory. This would make Lyme and PTLDS two different clinical entities, which would likely require two completely different treatment regimens. Lyme disease, being an active infection and responsive to antibiotics, and PTLDS being an autoimmune disease and thus requiring a different treatment regimen. If you hold this opinion, then you should support the CDC, IDSA, and NIH, not threaten and 'persecute' them. :lol:
.

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 19:16
by Camp Other
Bagge wrote:.
My highlights.

RitaA wrote:Bagge,

It's only because I have these references handy that I'm posting them here. It's difficult for me to tell whether or not you are questioning the autoimmune theory of PTLDS (aka chronic Lyme) that the CDC, NIAID and others support, so please forgive me if I misunderstood your remarks.

MuscleCar55 wrote:
I'm here to tell you that I think chronic Lyme could be autoimmune.
<snip>

Thanks for the information RitaA. I have access to the same. Yes, you did misunderstand, but that too is understandable.

The first document you listed is dated 2001. A lot has happened since that time. PTLDS is not a theory.
PTLDS is not a theory. It's a hypothesis. There is data which both supports an autoimmune-like condition callled PTLDS and also some data which does not fit the model.
Bagge wrote: It's interesting to hear a Lyme patient who is based out of the U.S. say that "chronic Lyme" disease is not due to a persistent infection, but rather an autoimmune disease.
Actually, she's from North America, but not the US. Canadian.

Regardless, she's not the only patient who thinks that Lyme disease can lead to an autoimmune disease. A number of patients and advocates do. People also think Lyme disease can be a persistent infection. And some think both conditions may exist at the same time.

Are you really that surprised? Are you aware of Dr. Karen Newell-Rogers research on post treatment Lyme disease and her pre-IND application to the FDA for clinical trials for a drug candidate which is supposed to help chronic Lyme patients? Her model is focused on the immune system. There might be antibiotic use for some participants based on their background. But mostly, her model of treating post treatment Lyme disease focuses on immune dysregulation and autoimmunity.

It's not that patients and advocates don't think autoimmune-like conditions can be triggered by Lyme - they do. It's just that a significant proportion of them report relief from severe symptoms through using antibiotics and they backslide if they try to stop taking them. Their hypothesis is that the reason is there is a backslide is because there is a persistent infection.
Bagge wrote: My point is that it seems like they are agreeing with the CDC, IDSA, and NIAID, and disagreeing with the ILADS theory. This would make Lyme and PTLDS two different clinical entities, which would likely require two completely different treatment regimens. Lyme disease, being an active infection and responsive to antibiotics, and PTLDS being an autoimmune disease and thus requiring a different treatment regimen.
Yes, it would require two different treatment approaches - unless the patient concurrently has an infection and autoimmunity. Then treatment gets trickier, because you don't want to suppress the immune system with steroids if there is infection there - at least not early on. But potentially other treatment approaches could be used alongside antibiotics that would help, like IGIV and immune modulating drugs which are very specific to the problem underlying chronic immune dysregulation.
Bagge wrote: If you hold this opinion, then you should support the CDC, IDSA, and NIH, not threaten and 'persecute' them. :lol:
.
RitaA may have disagreed with some of what the CDC, IDSA, and NIH has stated at times, but she hasn't to my knowledge threatened them and "persecuted them".

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 19:32
by Bagge
Camp Other wrote:

Actually, she's from North America, but not the US. Canadian.

Regardless, she's not the only patient who thinks that Lyme disease can lead to an autoimmune disease. A number of patients and advocates do. People also think Lyme disease can be a persistent infection. And some think both conditions may exist at the same time.

Are you really that surprised? Are you aware of Dr. Karen Newell-Rogers research on post treatment Lyme disease and her pre-IND application to the FDA for clinical trials for a drug candidate which is supposed to help chronic Lyme patients? Her model is focused on the immune system. There might be antibiotic use for some participants based on their background. But mostly, her model of treating post treatment Lyme disease focuses on immune dysregulation and autoimmunity.

It's not that patients and advocates don't think autoimmune-like conditions can be triggered by Lyme - they do. It's just that a significant proportion of them report relief from severe symptoms through using antibiotics and they backslide if they try to stop taking them. Their hypothesis is that the reason is there is a backslide is because there is a persistent infection.
Bagge wrote: My point is that it seems like they are agreeing with the CDC, IDSA, and NIAID, and disagreeing with the ILADS theory. This would make Lyme and PTLDS two different clinical entities, which would likely require two completely different treatment regimens. Lyme disease, being an active infection and responsive to antibiotics, and PTLDS being an autoimmune disease and thus requiring a different treatment regimen.
Yes, it would require two different treatment approaches - unless the patient concurrently has an infection and autoimmunity. Then treatment gets trickier, because you don't want to suppress the immune system with steroids if there is infection there - at least not early on. But potentially other treatment approaches could be used alongside antibiotics that would help, like IGIV and immune modulating drugs which are very specific to the problem underlying chronic immune dysregulation.
Bagge wrote: If you hold this opinion, then you should support the CDC, IDSA, and NIH, not threaten and 'persecute' them. :lol:
.
RitaA may have disagreed with some of what the CDC, IDSA, and NIH has stated at times, but she hasn't to my knowledge threatened them and "persecuted them".

OMG, Ms. Camp! All of this is utterly mind-blowing. It was MuscleCar who clearly stated he is from MI, which as best I recall is indeed part of the United States, as well as North America, and it was he who made the comment to which I referred and discussed with RitaA.

I don't have the stamina to address the rest of the chronic misunderstandings, all of which merely go to further evidence the points made by myself and many in the past in that people who are not qualified or otherwise lack the skills to a assess intricate data should not be attempting to do so, else there will be a chronic aka persistent misrepresentations and misunderstandings.
.

Re: Bullying Borrelia

Posted: Mon 28 Jan 2013 19:46
by RobertF
I have chronic Lyme since holidays at Easton Conn. in 1973 and have an autoimmun disease APLS antipospholidsyndrom
triggered by Lyme disease. No matter what others say.