Virginia Lyme bill

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Bagge
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Joined: Wed 19 Oct 2011 19:49

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by Bagge » Wed 27 Mar 2013 1:18

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A really good LLMD is a person who is ...<snip>
Discussions on the practices of those who claim to be "LLMDs" can be found elsewhere on this forum. The following thread "An LLMD is in the Eye of the Beholder" sums up the meaning of "LLMD" nicely.

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 158#p22864
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LHCTom
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Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by LHCTom » Fri 12 Apr 2013 7:02

The reason for the bill is simple:

We have a case of http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.co ... .jpg?w=250
The greater the ignorance, the greater the dogmatism.

Attributed to William Osler, 1902

Bagge
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed 19 Oct 2011 19:49

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by Bagge » Sat 13 Apr 2013 22:13

LHCTom wrote:The reason for the bill is simple:

We have a case of http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.co ... .jpg?w=250
Where is the science on this?
Bagge wrote:If a patient's condition responds to Kangen water, were they really suffering from an infection with Lyme disease?

If a patient claims to have a reaction to Kangen water, was it really a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, and does that really prove they had Lyme disease?

What about ASEA water? Would a reaction to that be considered as a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, and thus prove the patient had Lyme disease?

Healing sessions via a telephone chat or conference line, otherwise known as distance healing? If someone's condition responds to that, did they really have Lyme disease?

Where is the evidence that an infectious disease can be eliminated with dousing? acupuncture? chiropractic? homeopathy?

Is it within the scope of practice for an acupuncturist to diagnose and treat infectious diseases? a chiropractor?

Why do doctors who testify to the Legislature state that they are seriously ill with chronic Lyme disease, but then go on YouTube and present themselves as otherwise?
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radicale
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri 4 May 2012 16:51

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by radicale » Sat 13 Apr 2013 22:29

Bagge wrote:
LHCTom wrote:The reason for the bill is simple:

We have a case of http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.co ... .jpg?w=250
Where is the science on this?
Bagge wrote:If a patient's condition responds to Kangen water, were they really suffering from an infection with Lyme disease?

If a patient claims to have a reaction to Kangen water, was it really a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, and does that really prove they had Lyme disease?

What about ASEA water? Would a reaction to that be considered as a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, and thus prove the patient had Lyme disease?

Healing sessions via a telephone chat or conference line, otherwise known as distance healing? If someone's condition responds to that, did they really have Lyme disease?

Where is the evidence that an infectious disease can be eliminated with dousing? acupuncture? chiropractic? homeopathy?

Is it within the scope of practice for an acupuncturist to diagnose and treat infectious diseases? a chiropractor?

Why do doctors who testify to the Legislature state that they are seriously ill with chronic Lyme disease, but then go on YouTube and present themselves as otherwise?
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The answer is obvious. What is the point of repeating this dribble? Who are you trying to convince? If the government was regulating medicine in a proper manner, homoeopathy would only be allowed for entertainment purposes.

Camp Other
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:32
Contact:

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by Camp Other » Sat 13 Apr 2013 22:41

radicale wrote:
Bagge wrote:
LHCTom wrote:The reason for the bill is simple:

We have a case of http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.co ... .jpg?w=250
Where is the science on this?
Bagge wrote:If a patient's condition responds to Kangen water, were they really suffering from an infection with Lyme disease?

If a patient claims to have a reaction to Kangen water, was it really a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, and does that really prove they had Lyme disease?

What about ASEA water? Would a reaction to that be considered as a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, and thus prove the patient had Lyme disease?

Healing sessions via a telephone chat or conference line, otherwise known as distance healing? If someone's condition responds to that, did they really have Lyme disease?

Where is the evidence that an infectious disease can be eliminated with dousing? acupuncture? chiropractic? homeopathy?

Is it within the scope of practice for an acupuncturist to diagnose and treat infectious diseases? a chiropractor?

Why do doctors who testify to the Legislature state that they are seriously ill with chronic Lyme disease, but then go on YouTube and present themselves as otherwise?
.
The answer is obvious. What is the point of repeating this dribble? Who are you trying to convince? If the government was regulating medicine in a proper manner, homoeopathy would only be allowed for entertainment purposes.
I agree. What IS the point of repeating the same topics over and over?

It does cross my mind that sometimes I wonder if Bagge really knows zir audience here - or if Bagge is writing for the lurkers and not members.

And yet again, we're off topic. For about, oh, the something-thousandth time.

radicale
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri 4 May 2012 16:51

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by radicale » Sat 13 Apr 2013 22:53

Perhaps Bagge was taken advantage of by someone. If that is the case legal actions need to be taken, and you have my full support for that.

But, please take some time off from posting the same knee-jerked response to every topic. Your point has been made.

Bagge
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed 19 Oct 2011 19:49

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by Bagge » Sat 13 Apr 2013 23:01

radicale wrote:
The answer is obvious. What is the point of repeating this dribble? Who are you trying to convince? If the government was regulating medicine in a proper manner, homoeopathy would only be allowed for entertainment purposes.
The point is that the same activists, and the same 'medical' societies and patient associations who are fighting to pass these types of inappropriate laws are the same as those promoting the advancement and protection of the providers who use homeopathy, as well as those who diagnose and treat patients using muscle testing. The same providers, here's one featured in the film. Research the practices of the providers on the patient referral lists. It is those providers they are trying to protect; the one's selling the snake oil. Until there is science on Applied Kinesology and muscle testing, it should be called snake oil.

Educate, don't protect those selling snake oil. These laws do nothing to educate. This educates, and this, and this, and they are written by real experts in the field, not legislators who are not qualified to make such decisions. This is a misuse of legislation. Matters of medicine and science must not be decided by legislation, but by scientists and medical experts.
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Bagge
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed 19 Oct 2011 19:49

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by Bagge » Sat 13 Apr 2013 23:08

Camp Other wrote:I agree. What IS the point of repeating the same topics over and over?

It does cross my mind that sometimes I wonder if Bagge really knows zir audience here - or if Bagge is writing for the lurkers and not members.

And yet again, we're off topic. For about, oh, the something-thousandth time.
If I were to comment with praise for certain providers of snake oil who are members of certain 'medical' organizations or associations, there would be no criticism. I am well aware of that double-standard, as are many. It is the law of the land with Lyme disease activism - do not let anyone speak of the wrong-doings of the major players. If they do, spam their comments and accuse them of persecutions and misdeeds. It's a manipulation tactic, but it works on some, until they learn better. Fortunately there are a couple of people left around with some integrity and willing to enlighten others, and I and many others owe them a great deal of appreciation.
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radicale
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri 4 May 2012 16:51

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by radicale » Sat 13 Apr 2013 23:17

Bagge wrote:
radicale wrote:
The answer is obvious. What is the point of repeating this dribble? Who are you trying to convince? If the government was regulating medicine in a proper manner, homoeopathy would only be allowed for entertainment purposes.
The point is that the same activists, and the same 'medical' societies and patient associations who are fighting to pass these types of inappropriate laws are the same as those promoting the advancement and protection of the providers who use homeopathy, as well as those who diagnose and treat patients using muscle testing. The same providers, here's one featured in the film. Research the practices of the providers on the patient referral lists. It is those providers they are trying to protect; the one's selling the snake oil. Until there is science on Applied Kinesology and muscle testing, it should be called snake oil.

Educate, don't protect those selling snake oil. These laws do nothing to educate. This educates, and this, and this, and they are written by real experts in the field, not legislators who are not qualified to make such decisions. This is a misuse of legislation. Matters of medicine and science must not be decided by legislation, but by scientists and medical experts.
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This is how things should work when the scientists and MDs base guidelines on the best available science, without bias. When it does, the quacks disappear and I would like nothing more than this to be the reality.

The Lyme Disease field has been paralysed for more than a decade. Myself and a few other members of this forum were mis-diagnosed because the MDs were not competent enough to make a clinical diagnosis and the tests used the incorrect strain (NA when they should have been European). As a result, an opportunity for the quacks to take advantage of us was generated.

Why are we using diagnostic tests which do not cover all known strains, when it is technically possible? Does this have to do with the best available science?

Do you see a problem here Bagge? I see the same problem that you do but we seem to differ in the cause. By solving the main problems, related to diagnosis, the quacks will disappear. The scientists have failed us in this regard.

Camp Other
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed 2 Mar 2011 4:32
Contact:

Re: Virginia Lyme bill

Post by Camp Other » Sun 14 Apr 2013 0:46

Bagge wrote:
Camp Other wrote:I agree. What IS the point of repeating the same topics over and over?

It does cross my mind that sometimes I wonder if Bagge really knows zir audience here - or if Bagge is writing for the lurkers and not members.

And yet again, we're off topic. For about, oh, the something-thousandth time.
If I were to comment with praise for certain providers of snake oil who are members of certain 'medical' organizations or associations, there would be no criticism. I am well aware of that double-standard, as are many. It is the law of the land with Lyme disease activism - do not let anyone speak of the wrong-doings of the major players. If they do, spam their comments and accuse them of persecutions and misdeeds. It's a manipulation tactic, but it works on some, until they learn better. Fortunately there are a couple of people left around with some integrity and willing to enlighten others, and I and many others owe them a great deal of appreciation.
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No one is asking you to praise certain providers of snake oil. What I asked you is for positive recommendations for doctors who treat Lyme disease and/or other tickborne infections - not snake oil sellers.

Bagge, I think I've been rather clear on a few points during my history here at LNE and in my own blog. Is there some reason you seem to not absorb the following points - or is it that you have in fact absorbed them but continue to bring up the same topic in relation to nearly every thread anyway, because you have the freedom to post on LNE and know you would be censored on other Lyme fora?

Those few points:

1) I have no issue with someone pointing out that a doctor is practicing based on pseudoscience - especially as long as they provide scientific evidence that what they do is pseudoscience and how precisely it is pseudoscience.

2) I have no issue with someone pointing out that a doctor has done something harmful or engaged in unethical behavior and providing evidence that they have done something harmful or engaged in unethical behavior. I only warn any author of such discussions that they may wish to tread carefully about how they go about it because they can open themselves up to a charge of libel/defamation. Remember: An accusation is not the same thing as guilt.

3) I myself have pointed out pseudoscientific practices and doctors I wish were not practicing medicine, and yet Bagge and a few others have told me I am persecuting them and wrongly accusing them when ask them for examples doctors who are engaging in model medical practices and helping Lyme disease patients. WTF?

Anyone at LNE can pretty much say what they want without being censored. Perhaps, Bagge, being here comes as a relief to you because you know you are highly unlikely to be censored for what you write and also, unlikely to be banned. I can see how that would be liberating if you felt judged on another forum and thought you were being ignored and insulted by others for sharing what you thought was important information and only for others' own good.

However, I've been here for a while and I'm already well acquainted with the issues you've brought up about pseudoscience and doctors who practice it - as have a number of active members who have been here a while.

So, how can we make progress past this point and discuss something else? Or - if you must discuss these issues - can you put them in a new topic thread?

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