Invincible borrelia?

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
X-member
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Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by X-member » Wed 27 Jul 2016 21:29

Henry wrote:
In all 5 of the published clinical studies on the benefit of extended antibiotic therapy for the treatment of post-treatment Lyme disease symptoms, the investigators could find NO evidence for the existence of a persistent infection prior to treatment.
Exactly. 8-)

So, we need some good treatment studies on cases who have signs of an (still) active borrelia infection, instead.

Edit to add:

More information can be found in the thread below:

Signs of a still active, ongoing borrelia infection?

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =11&t=5226

Henry
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Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Wed 27 Jul 2016 23:52

X-member: Oh yes, I agree. However, such patients are extremely difficult to find. More than 1,000 patients were considered for enrollment in the 5 studies that I mentioned. All had post treatment Lyme disease symptoms, often described as "chronic Lyme disease". However, NONE had direct evidence of active infection. NONE. You can verify this by looking at the enrollment criteria and history of each of the studies. Don't you think something else must be contributing to their symptoms?

X-member
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Joined: Mon 30 Jul 2007 18:18

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by X-member » Thu 28 Jul 2016 11:40

Henry wrote:
However, such patients are extremely difficult to find.
I wrote in an earlier post in this thread:

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 175#p44306
This means that treatment failures and relapses occur in Sweden and are treated with abx.

duncan
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Fri 29 Jul 2016 22:48

Henry, what do you mean by direct evidence of active infection?

Are you talking cultured Bb from EM's? PCR?

S'plain, please. If the former, culturing outside an EM is very rare. If the latter PCR, success rates for Bb are notoriously low.

Also, weren't many if not most participants late stage cases, where almost all evidence of infection is indirect?

Henry
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Sat 30 Jul 2016 0:09

In all of the studies I referred to, the patients were negative by culture and PCR -- at the time of enrollment. Although most of the patients were seropositive for Borrelia, some were seronegative; the latter formed the seronegative arm of one of the studies conducted by KLempner.

duncan
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Sat 30 Jul 2016 0:18

Henry, don't you think it's just a wee disingenuous to state participants were culture negative, and even negative via PCR? :)

Anybody that knows a little about Bb knows once the disease has moved into late disseminated stage, neither metric has a great record. In fact, the record is downright pitiful.

So why mention what should be obvious to the most novice among us?

Moreover, x-member's point is well-made. We need to go after infected patients, and contrary to what you say, there are many such individuals. Go ask Adriana Marques.

Henry
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Sun 31 Jul 2016 1:06

So tell me what Adriana Marques had to say on this issue.

duncan
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Sun 31 Jul 2016 1:27

I'm sorry, Henry, I assumed you knew she headed the NIH's Lyme Team.

Henry
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Sun 31 Jul 2016 14:05

Duncan: Don't be so evasive. You said, "We need to go after infected patients... and that there are many such individuals". You then said, "Go ask Adriana Marques". So, tell us all what she had to say about that issue?

duncan
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Joined: Wed 5 Sep 2012 18:48

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Sun 31 Jul 2016 14:51

Yes, I thought you knew her. So you know how to reach out to her.

Read what I wrote. Go ask her. I'm not here to supply you with all the answers anymore.

Or if you are reluctant to do that, at least assume she is familiar with the numbers now being bantered about, e.g., over 300,000 infected each year, with up to 20% of ACUTE cases unhelped by common therapy. No one really know what those numbers are when it comes to late stage patients since late stage research has been sorely lacking these last 10+ years.

Alternatively, look at the research she has been involved in. Not the opinion pieces - the actual research.

Clearly, there are ample indicators of many, many people infected with Bb.

What's at play here, though, is your odd assertion that there was no direct evidence of Bb infection for cohort members of the RCT's. How relevant was that observation? Of the 300,000+ infected per year, how many have direct evidence? Isn't that question equally relevant?

I will parse it down for you: Outside of NIH-sponsored studies involving EM's done since 2000, how many Lyme study participants have direct evidence of Bb involvement?

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