Invincible borrelia?

General or non-medical topics with information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
Henry
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Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Sun 31 Jul 2016 23:50

Duncan: You still haven't told me what Adriana Marques had to say -- or what you think she had to say-- about all this. Please enlighten me.

duncan
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Mon 1 Aug 2016 0:08

No.

Henry, although it is good to see you admit I probably know more about Marques than you, I am still waiting for adequate answers to my questions.

So, first things first, if you don't mind. And please be aware it's pretty obvious when you are dodging and equivocating, and it looks silly.

Better yet, why don't you dispense with this nonsense of baiting me, and try tackling dlf's points?

Henry
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Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Mon 1 Aug 2016 14:44

Duncan: What don't you understand? I did answer your questions #1 and 2. Go back and read what I said.

DLF's points were addressed to hv808ct for his/her response, if he/she cares to respond.

You must know that there are plenty of reports -- many of them cited in the IDSA guidelines-- on the benefit of treating culture confirmed cases of active Lyme disease with the standard regimen of oral doxycycline. Although many of these patients will remain seropositive for a long period of time after treatment, a significant and substantial number are asymptomatic thereby attesting to the benefit of such therapy.There doesn't seem to be a problem with "persisters" or biofilms in these studies that relate to what happens during culture confirmed active infection. So, why is the situation different with respect to "chronic Lyme disease"? My main point is this: Since there is no evidence to indicate that the symptoms -- that I accept as being very real-- often attributed to chronic Lyme disease are due to a persistent infection and the results of at least 5 RCTs tend to negate such a possibility, one should seriously consider other possibilities -- besides an assumed unproven persistent infection-- if one truly wishes to help such patients. What is so unreasonable about that open-minded approach ?

Henry
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Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Mon 1 Aug 2016 16:59

In my last posting, I should have noted that the published results of several excellent studies conducted in Europe, where the incidence of neuroborreliosis is much greater than in the U.S., indicate that treatment with oral doxycycline (14-28 days) is curative and just as effective as i.v. ceftriaxone (30 days or more). Obviously, doxycycline is able to cross the blood brain barrier under such circumstances; this obviates the need for -- and enormous expense of -- prolonged i.v therapy with antibiotics such as ceftriaxone.

duncan
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Mon 1 Aug 2016 17:11

Henry, although conventional protocol can prove beneficial to a "significant and substantial" number of Lyme patients, it can also fail a "significant and substantial" number. I think the IDSA estimates failure rates range from 10% to 20% in early stage cases. X-member just posted something that suggests mush higher failure rates for late stage cases.

There is plenty of evidence that symptoms are attributable to Lyme in many chronic Lyme cases. I do not have any idea why you keep repeating the same erroneous claim. Your 5 RCT's negate nothing. Moreover, they prove little if they are repeating the same errors - and even then, each of the five disagrees with the others in some important regards (e.g. fatigue vs cognition variables)

We can use me as an example, if that will help. I have Lyme symptoms. I am 2T positive, so I am compliant with CDC diagnostic criteria. I am also C6 positive. I SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS FOR A LYME DIAGNOSIS. Period. You can call it late stage Lyme, you can call it chronic Lyme. But it's Lyme. Calling it post-treatment Lyme is disingenuous because who cares if I got treatment if the treatment fails? If I'm one of the 20%? It is still Lyme, and you cannot prove differently simply by complaining that a given therapy usually works in a majority of patients. Democracy doesn't apply here.

You know what else? My "minor" symptoms are just as severe as most you can mention. They are just as real, too.And many are demonstrable.

I am just one of thousands like me. Tens of thousands more that may simply miss the criteria by a band or two.

Democracy FAILS in medicine. If your cure works 80% of the time, are you going to sit there and tell me that the medical community should be okay with a 20% or higher casualty rate? No one can pretend we don't exist any longer, Henry. There is too much proof, and our numbers are only surging higher.

Hey, did you see the new Lyme legislation passed in Massachusetts? Chalk up another one for progress and the sick.

Henry
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Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Mon 1 Aug 2016 18:59

Duncan: No comment. I believe that I have addressed the issues you raised many times in this and other postings. Perhaps your doctor doesn't like you and would rather you go somewhere else. I can understand how a doctor can soon grow "weary" of someone with your "superior intellect" who is argumentative and thinks they know everything. Another burden I'm afraid you have to bear. I don't know of any medicine that will cure that.

Yes, the Lyme bill was passed in Massachusetts. However, don't let that raise your hopes. The governor vetoed it.

duncan
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Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Mon 1 Aug 2016 19:13

My understanding is that the MA Senate overrode the veto.

Seems you're behind on the Lyme news.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Mon 1 Aug 2016 19:56

I keep forgetting that you know everything and are always right -- just like dlf. The two of you would be a match made in heaven.

Henry
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu 10 Nov 2011 18:49

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by Henry » Mon 1 Aug 2016 20:37

I checked and found that the Governor's compromise version of the bill was what was passed. It provides coverage only for evidence-based proven treatments for Lyme disease. So, if you want insurance to cover the cost of an unorthodox treatment approach, the person providing such treatment must provide evidence that it is both effective and safe. After all, that is only reasonable, wouldn't you think? If you bought a TV set, wouldn't you be entitled to expect it to function properly and safely?

duncan
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Joined: Wed 5 Sep 2012 18:48

Re: Invincible borrelia?

Post by duncan » Mon 1 Aug 2016 20:43

So you admit you were wrong. See? Progress is possible.

There are many, many Lyme patients who have been forced to learn about their disease, Henry, because they have been forced to. It has little to do with superior intellect, and much with necessity.

It is a shameful indictment of the greater Lyme medical establishment.

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