The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Medical topics with questions, information and discussion related to Lyme disease and other tick-borne diseases.
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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by X-member » Tue 7 Aug 2012 20:37

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 071#p30372

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 071#p30375

My own words:

An active Lyme infection of a long duration.

Edit to add:

I can actually link you to my own words in many, many discussions in this forum, and this is very often discussions with you, Henry,

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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by X-member » Tue 7 Aug 2012 20:43

Let us now go back to the first post, and what "they" (the patients and their physicians) are talking about.

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 071#p30374

A quote:

Carina:
So, are they talking about "chronic Lyme disease" or are they talking about chronic Lyme borreliosis?

Henry
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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by Henry » Tue 7 Aug 2012 20:58

I would agree with the following which are the definitions that I have been using:

Late Lyme disease or late Lyme borreliosis = untreated (or "inadequately" treated) infection by Borrelia. It is responsive to 3-4 weeks of oral antibiotic therapy (doxycycline).

Chronic Lyme disease or chronic Lyme borreliosis = persistent symptoms associated with Lyme borreliosis after correct diagnosis of initial infection, "appropriate" antibiotic treatment, and no clinical evidence of persistent infection. Chronic Lyme disease is not responsive to extended antibiotic therapy. Actually, it would be more precise to use the term post treatment Lyme disease syndrome (PTLDS) to describe this condition; it acknowledges the existence of a set of non-specific symptoms that arise after treatment for Lyme disease, but makes no assumptions as to the mechanism involved. Fair enough?
Last edited by Henry on Tue 7 Aug 2012 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by X-member » Tue 7 Aug 2012 21:02

Henry:
Chronic Lyme disease or chronic Lyme borreliosis = persistent symptoms associated with Lyme borreliosis after correct diagnosis of initial infection, "appropriate" antibiotic treatment, and no clinical evidence of persistent infection. Chronic Lyme disease is not responsive to extended antibiotic therapy.
Yes, I know that is what you have said, but this is not correct, NOT according to EUCALB:s information.

And you have actually recommended EUCALB in this forum.

Henry
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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by Henry » Tue 7 Aug 2012 21:34

And what is your interpretation of what EUCALB says?

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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by X-member » Tue 7 Aug 2012 21:37

Henry:
And what is your interpretation of what EUCALB says?
EUCALB say that chronic Lyme borreliosis is a Lyme infection of a long duration.

Henry
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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by Henry » Tue 7 Aug 2012 23:59

Carina: You are wrong. I just read the material on the EUCALB website and EUCALB does not recognized the existence of chronic Lyme disease (http://www.eucalb.com/). Otherwise, what I have said is consistent with the definitions that they use. They certainly do not recommend antibiotic treatment of more than 2-3 weeks.

Now, WHAT ARE YOUR DEFINITIONS and how do they compare to mine?

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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by X-member » Wed 8 Aug 2012 0:05

Henry, can you please link me to the post (in this thread) where I talk about treatment.

EUCALB, Description and Stages.

http://www.eucalb.com/
Acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans (ACA)

Is an unusual progressive fibrosing skin lesion which is probably the most common manifestation of chronic Lyme borreliosis in Europe. It usually occurs in the lower limbs of elderly people, starting with a bluish discolouration of the skin, followed by gradual epidermal atrophy, the skin developing a thin shiny, papery appearance. The condition is due to the effect of continuing active infection. Live spirochaetes have been isolated from skin biopsy specimens of patients with ACA as long as ten years after initial infection

Henry
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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by Henry » Wed 8 Aug 2012 0:16

ACA is a localized skin lesion and not at all like the condition most people in the U.S. -- and now even Europe-- refer to as chronic Lyme disease. It's not the same thing. It is treated with 21 days of antibiotics, usually oral doxycycline -- with complete cure. Here's what EUCALB says about chronic Lyme disease:

Chronic neurologic syndromes

Lyme encephalopathy is rare. It should not be diagnosed in the absence of laboratory evidence of B. burgdorferi infection. It can result in memory loss, depression, sensory polyneuropathy or spastic paraparesis, probably caused by direct infection of the nervous system.

Some manifestations of Lyme encephalopathy may resemble those of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) or fibromyalgia. This condition may be triggered by a preceding B burgdorferi infection (amongst many other possible triggers), but ongoing active infection is not present.

A recent multi-authored international review of 'chronic' Lyme borreliosis (N Engl J Med 357;14, 2007) concluded that despite strong advocacy by some physicians and patient groups, the "assumption that chronic, subjective symptoms are caused by persistent infection with B. burgdorferi is not supported by carefully conducted laboratory studies or by controlled treatment trials. Chronic Lyme disease, which is equated with chronic B. burgdorferi infection, is a misnomer, and the use of prolonged, dangerous, and expensive antibiotic treatments for it is not warranted".
Last edited by Henry on Wed 8 Aug 2012 0:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Phenomenon of "Chronic Lyme Disease"

Post by X-member » Wed 8 Aug 2012 0:24

Back to what this topic is about again.

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 071#p30374

From the post above (earlier in this thread):

So, are they talking about "chronic Lyme disease" or are they talking about chronic Lyme borreliosis?
Now everyone in the whole world understand what chronic Lyme borreliosis is.

It is an infection of a long duration, and one common symptom (not the only symptom in many cases) is ACA.

More info about B Afzelii (and symptoms when it comes to a dissiminated B Afzelii-infection) can be found in another topic in this forum.

Edit to add:

"Info about (mainly) B Afzelii"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... =20#p30213

A quote:
It seems that Borrelia afzelii is apparently less immunogenic / more stealth in its nature than Borrelia garinii, so correct diagnosis is not made by the conventional test methods, are not made early at the time when there is great chance of cure by short term antibiotic treatment - because the patients are not diagnosed and treated as early they have a worse long term prognosis and are not cured by conventional treatment for Borrelia....
Edit to add2:

Here is a good list of symptoms when it comes to a disseminated B Afzelii-infection:

"Info about B Afzelii"

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/view ... 592#p26180
Last edited by X-member on Wed 8 Aug 2012 0:36, edited 2 times in total.

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